Gigs and how they work

The money you receive from successful paying gigs comes to you.  But you have to pay your crew.  So my understanding of this is that for every 3 or 4 gigs you complete (which could be anywhere from 3 to 10 barter in total "profit" for you), you have to give 1-barter of that to your crew (as a group - if your crew includes PCs they might each get paid in a measurable unit of 1-barter every once in a while).

As to how many gigs you can work in a month, I think it varies wildly by the circumstances of your campaign.  Gigs (like everything else in AW) happen at the speed of the story.  If everything goes well, you could probably knock out a bunch of them.  If things go poorly, you might have a long stretch of down-time while people heal.

My current game is running under the directives of an Operator with all of the other characters being part of his crew. Working out the jobs, whether through moonlighting (which as of this week each and every one of them has) or actually playing out the jobs from beginning to end the money is always the source of conflict.

Our Battle-babe this week was ready to shoot the Operator over being forced to use up all her barter and running around in debt to other characters. She wasn't pleased that they pulled a 5 barter job, and she didn't see a penny of it. Our Tugboat salvage driver was the only thing that kept that in check. It was his job, but he ended up tossing some of his split her way, anyway. As the MC I'm not stepping in, I'm just waiting in anticipation to see how they hash it out, or if it'll come to blows.

Generally speaking, the Operator needs to be flashing a cut towards any member of the crew doing the work. Don't hand out extra as MC just because you've another PC trying to help. Let them figure it out, it's part of the drama.

Followed the link from Playbook Focus: The Operator

@Radan

The way I've seen operators played is that there is no set "cut". The playbook itself states "1-barter will also cover your crew’s cut of a couple three four profitable gigs". The language leaves it open for interpretation. Barter itself is a fluid unit of measurement because a 2-Barter Gun might be worth Zero-Barter in a pacifist commune.

This flexibility and context allows for some rather nice fuckery. 1-barter covers a months expenses. The crew presumably does side work for several people (as well you, The Operator) to make ends meet since they get a fraction of the 1-barter per 3-4 profitable gigs. "You" might have to grease their palms if things went south. Pay more barter or favors to keep them willing to work with you in the future, which invites all sorts of tasty interaction and drama.

As the others stated before me; profit, loss, and transaction are dictated on the fictional logic of game play. I'm sorry if that isn't particularly helpful to you specifically but I've observed that Apocalypse World focuses more about the flow of the story than addition of set statistics. Color first and all that.

All answers helped me - thank to all of you...

But also Vincent himself answered me (!:)) http://apocalypse-world.com/forums/index.php?topic=6526.msg29004#msg29004.

The cut is from 2-4 gigs, which is still too wide for me (2-4 gigs times 1-3 barters). And BATER IS MORE FIXED VALUE than is posted above - it JUST DEPENDS AT SETTING, but BY RULES IT IS DEFINED AS ONE MONTH LIVING EXPENSES and other BASE RESOURCES. The quality of living (from just some shelter to squat standard of present time;)) also depends at the setting, but it is 1 barter monthly anyway. Also even with pacifist community, the 1 barter for good gun is still valid - beacause of hunting at least. And pacifist commnity in Apocalypse world sounds strange (but it is interesting;) - see the Solace, or at least the Skinner).

Which is interesting (or even important) also is Vincent's answer for that the Operator has to participate in the gigs! So my imagnation of also independent usage of he crew was too much :(.
     But I am still thinking that way, beacause I am doing that (living that way) in my real life and I am quite sure, that I will be able to proceed with that even after the Apocalypse. I am well prepared - and I am using the AW more like psychological simulator than just a game ;). Also that is my reason for being more PRECISE - the other reason is my prearation of "RESOURCES RESUPPLY RUN - SETTING SCENARIOs" :). Example efect: *Guns and ammo is here (see the Chopper), but who making the new ones (if any NEW GUNS and not just amo)?*

We should not forgetting how long are the supply chains - or is somene from you able to make ammo (at least) by self (handmade)? ;) By the way - I think, that the Apocalypse is coming also because of that, :(.

I mean, there are gigs from 1 barter to 3 barter (with upgoing risk), so the cut could be appropriate, noot?

The idea is that your crew only supports you. You do all the heavy hauling, and management. Their collective cut is always 1-barter, while you pocket everything else (assuming they even had to help you with the job).

HOW MANY GIGS (and how "hard" in mean of barter value - see above) can be reasonably done IN ONE MONTH (aproximately or / and average)?

There's no answer to this. If your character is constantly busy, they won't be able to run gigs at all. They need some downtime to do gigs (that's why it's called "Moonlighting"). It's right in the move's description.

DOES THE OPERATOR HAVE TO PARTICIPATE IN ALL GIGS and if not in some, than in what can be out and why. RULES say just CREW PINNED DOWN (noot the operator), but EXAMPLE in MC section say that the operator can be buckwashed.

Yes you need to be involved. Your crew doesn't do anything without you leading them. The age of middle management is long gone.

CHANGE OOF THE CREW cann also mean MORE members, or just one out for one in?

Yes, to both.

Can CREW WITH OPERATOR BE A PART OF A GANG or whole gang (see above)?

Your crew does not count as a gang when they aren't on a gig (unless you have pack alpha and your gang is your crew). They have day jobs just like you.

Also note that you are part of your crew, just as a chopper is part of his gang. Leaders tend to be members, you know.

Agreed!

-Vincent

Dear Decivre,

even the author of AW, Vincent himself, answered me, that the Operator is involved in the gigs (THANK YOU AGAIN, dear Vincent!:)).
     Decivre - but your idea about the crew as only suport seems as too hard for the Operator. Because even with the starting Monlighting = 2 juggling, the Operator could do 2 profitable gigs (if obligation is unwrked) and they can be for 3 barter (only murders are for that much barter) and 2 barters (technical work for example). Do that two comlex-hard gigs with just some support sem as to much, not? But the Operaor should like the idea for being rich so fast :).

I am thinking about the Moonlighting move as about working late evenings and until (or even THROUGH) nights (MOON light ;) ), so "offscreen" could also means that, not? Or something as was in feudalism - 5 days working for landlord and 1 day for self and 1 day for rest (church visits etc.). Also in present time is working week (5 days working for some company or so) and wekend (2 day for your self etc.). I remember when my parents had weekendhouse - NO FREE WEEKENDS in that time, even no rest ;(.
     I am doing that "Monlightong" (and much more) in my real life - without emlpoyees (crews) and comrades (gangs;)) it would be impossible to doing as much as WE (and smetmes mre "THEY") are doing...

It is possible to got +1 juggling WITH gig (SEE SEX MOVE of the Operator ;) ) or as independent advancement? (now I do not ave he rules with me), but anyway, the Operator wih 3 and MORE JUGGLING should have more than just support from the crew, not? See the Angel with Infirmary - it looks like the crew is DEDICATED and NOT JUST SUPPORTing (If I understand the rules text well;))...

* If your character is constantly busy, they won't be able to run gigs at all. * - I think, that the Operator should be (or at least COULD BE) busy more with OPERATING (with crew etc.) than in other stuff (especially if not connected with the ROLE of the Operator). The crew of the Operator is also like the gun(s) of he Gunlugger and not just like the gang of the Chopper (although the gang is for he Chopper like the guns for the Gunlugger, not?;)). What I mean is relationship as crew BELONG to the Operator (as present time EMLOYEES) and not just PARTICIPATING (as the gang with the Chopper - even as alpha role).
     The Hardholder is also the employer (and LEADER) to appropriate gang. Which means, that the Chopper can BE WITH a gang (and alpha...), but the whole gang can BELONG to the Hardholder (true leader). It also means, that a gag member can think about the Chopper as about the alpha dog, about the Operator as about (middle;))manager - employer and about the Hardholder as about the top employer - leader. Having cuts form more jobs is (the only) way for even the lowest gangmember howto make full 1 barter monthly (and sometimes more). And that 1 barter monthly is needed for living. And because the living likes a HOLD, then the Hardholder is perceived as the top, then because living likes some SERVICES (safety, production of food etc.) - which are OPERATIONS, then the Operator could be perceived as (middle)manager - (sub)employer.

--- Uff, it was not easy to think about it even in my native language ;). ---


NEW QUESTION - can the CREW HELPING WITH THE OBLIGATIONS also?!
     For example to "avoid someone" with 4 people helping is much more easier that to doing it without such help, not? ;) And what about "paying debts" with valuables given together from (or at least WITH) the helpig crew (as ANTI-CUT ;) )...?

The way I've always imagined this to work is that the Operator relies on the crew for specific tasks.  Think of it like any heist movie - you have the safe-cracker, the getaway driver, the con-man, and the gun-toting goon, each of whom contributes something to the job.

So for instance, if one of your gigs is to escort stuff from one place to another, you might be lucky enough to have the Driver as part of your crew.  Or the Gunlugger riding shotgun in the vehicle.  Or some NPC might be doing one or the other of those jobs.  But at some level, the Operator is the centerpiece.  He or she is the one handling the tricky negotiations, making sure everyone is doing their jobs, looking for ambushes, and keeping an ear to the ground to make sure the crew stays ahead of the competition.  So while the Driver might be driving the escort vehicle and the Gunlugger might be riding shotgun in the transport vehicle, the Operator is driving (or riding in) the chase vehicle, and will make sure that the transfer of goods goes smoothly on the other side.

Similarly, if the Operator is doing murders then having some experts might be handy.  One NPC on the crew (say a breaking and entering specialist) might get the Operator into the target's dwelling.  The PC Skinner might be part of the crew and will distract the target's bodyguards.  The PC Gunlugger might be standing by in the shadows in case something goes wrong.  And the Operator herself is the one sneaking in, unlimbering her piano-wire garotte, and strangling the daylights out of some poor bastard.  So while the Operator is involved, the crew are playing crucial supporting roles that allow the Operator to do her job.

And for those support services, the crew needs to be paid.  I'm sorry there's no hard-and-fast rule for the crew's cut, but that's the nature of the business.  Some jobs are easy, some jobs are hard.  Some jobs look easy until something goes wrong.  The more harm or risk to which you expose your crew, the more they might ask for their participation.  The wording of the rule is extremely fluid for that very reason.

And yes, the crew might be able help with obligations.  But if they did, I'd count them as "profitable gigs" from the perspective of owing your crew a cut, and since the gig itself didn't generate any income that money comes out of the Operator's own pocket.  Remember, as the Operator you owe someone something, not your crew.  If you want your crew to help you, you have to pay them.

Also, in English the term 'moonlighting' simply means working an extra job (i.e. you work your 'day job' all day, then 'moonlight' at night).  Hence, the Operator is 'juggling' multiple jobs, trying to work them all in such a way as to keep up with their commitments to everyone.  But you will note that at least at the beginning the Operator starts with 3 gigs (2 paying, 1 obligation) but only a juggling of 2.  That means that until the Operator takes an advance to drop an obligation gig, they will always have to make a hard choice about which gig they're not working.  Hence the term 'juggling' - you're trying desperately to keep all of the balls in the air.

even the author of AW, Vincent himself, answered me, that the Operator is involved in the gigs (THANK YOU AGAIN, dear Vincent!:)).

Yeah, I thought that was pretty cool. Always nice to have your statements lauded by the creator.

The forum won't allow me to quote you entirely, so I'm going to brief your questions and whatnot. Please don't be offended if I didn't not brief them too accurately.

Why are all gigs worth different amounts of barter despite requiring the same number of rolls and effective effort?

Remember that consequences are a core element of Apocalypse World. Yes, murdering people does give you more money than making business trades, despite having the same effective difficulty. But you piss less people off by making trades than by murdering their friends and family.

MCs should snowball events off their PC's actions. If they're murdering people for quick cash, they should expect that to bite them in the ass down the line.

Is a night enough time to moonlight, or do you need more time?

You could, theoretically, do your moonlighting literally at night. As long as you have downtime during the night. But it's up to the MC to decide what is "enough time" for you to do your moonlighting thing. For instance, at my old table, the operator needed at least one full free day to do his moonlighting. That means no other interactions and adventures... he's spending the next day doing odd jobs for quick jingle.

It is possible to got +1 juggling WITH gig (SEE SEX MOVE of the Operator ;) ) or as independent advancement?

So far as I can see, you always get more juggling when you get a new gig. It's part of the Moonlighting move.

As a rule of thumb, once you get the advancement that allows you to lose an obligation gig, you can just stop keeping track of juggling. You always have enough.

I think, that the Operator should be (or at least COULD BE) busy more with OPERATING (with crew etc.) than in other stuff (especially if not connected with the ROLE of the Operator).

The Operator is technically always working a gig. In a sense, the core plot of your AW game is itself a broader gig that your operator is a part of. The Moonlighting move is more about the things he does when he's not chasing the plot of your game.

What I mean is relationship as crew BELONG to the Operator (as present time EMLOYEES) and not just PARTICIPATING (as the gang with the Chopper - even as alpha role).

No, the crew doesn't belong to the Operator. They too are moonlighting, and thus taking time away from their day jobs and lives to help the operator out for quick cash. Which is why your crew doesn't have any hard mechanics really associated with them. They aren't like the Chopper's gang, who is loyal and follows him into battle. They are a bunch of misfit mercenaries looking for bank, and you're finding them jobs.

Is the relationship between an operator and their crew comparable to an employer and their employees?

--- Uff, it was not easy to think about it even in my native language ;). ---

I can imagine.

You can probably think of the relationship between a crew and the operator as similar to the relationship between an athlete and an agent. The agent finds athlete potential work, but it is inevitably the athlete that decides whether they want to do it. The big difference between the operator and the agent is that the operator is himself an "athlete". He isn't just looking for jobs for other people, but ones he can make cash from himself.

And in the end, it's the operator's name that will be tied to the success or failure of a gig. Not the crew's.

NEW QUESTION - can the CREW HELPING WITH THE OBLIGATIONS also?!

That's up to you and your MC to decide if it is relevant. As is true with any and every gig. For example, I don't particularly see why you would need your crew for a "F*cking" gig. Unless it's group s*x, or something....

Wow, just learned that this site has a language filter. Crazy.

Remember that there's only one Operator in your game, and somebody is playing them. Many of these questions could simply be posed to the Operator's player, and whatever they answer would be true of that particular Apocalypse.

There is no generic answer to 'what is the relationship between the Operator and her crew?' -- there is only the answer that any given Operator's player comes up with, for them. One Operator might think of their crew as family, and keep them around at all times; another might deal with them as equal partners in a risky enterprise; a third might consider them expendable talent, to be replaced as needed; a fourth might literally own their crew, having purchased them from slavers.

Questions that are more mechanical in nature might seem like they need to have stricter answers, which are always true in every game, but it's not the case either. Things like exactly how much the Operator pays their crew, or what it means to work 'murders' versus courier jobs, or how long is long enough to count as downtime for purposes of the move -- those are all things that the MC and Operator's player ultimately need to decide together, for a particular game. There is no advantage to deciding it in advance, independent of the reality of a particular Operator and a particular Apocalypse -- because there's only ever one at a time.

Thank you both, Decivre and Daniel! :)

I am happy more than enough for even some answers - even if they do not mechanical help and just put the question into roleplaying as Daniel posted.

But the rules should be for fair play and easier imagination - narative, roleplay etc. So if the word CREW seem to me more as employers (remember, that I have such crews in my real life and I am paying them etc.), but for fair play they should NOT SUCH BELONG to the Operator, than it should be noted in the rules. So on one side crew as employees - even PART TIME JOBs ;) as it sems - could be LESS LOYAL to the Operator than a gang of COMRADES etc. is LOYAL to the Chopper. On the other hand the Chopper seems like need some lever to the loyality - se the "Alpha dog" move, therefore the gang NOT BELONGS to the Chopper as he is NOT PAYING the gang etc. He even can GETTING VALUABLES FROM THE GANG by the move "Fucking thieves". Therefore I am not sure, WHAT IS  FAIR: to let the Oparetor USING the crew as tool - like employees, or only as boost - participating as posted before.

I am open for each solution and even other solution for other scenario, but I want to  be sure that the players see each solution in appropriate scenarion as fair play.

Lastly, please remember, that I am preparing SUPER SCENARIO for "RESOURCE -RESUPPLY RUN", which will need also the gig - barter - cut questions answered. If you got all AW books (Limited Edition, the AW book for CHILDREN I AW and even scenario from Vincent - *Hatched city*) and go through the rules more times as i did (!:)), you will see some SCENARIO RELATED RULES - some pieces of Apocalypse World how it was imagined by the author of it. For example see the Chopper fluff text giving even MORE THAN ENOUGH AMMO and and weapons into the game as whole - that means, it should be that way in each scenario, because Apocalypse World without shooting scenes will be like a modern movie without colors ;(.

I prepared sample scenarios from nearly absolute apocalypse, to apocalypse as nice as possible for being still the Apocalypse World ;).
     The first case - *absolutely AW* ;) : 1 barter for living expenses means just some shleter, nerly not enough of nearly not drinkable water and nearly not edible food - or DIY like rat traps and a knife, lighter and permition for using it all with wood scavanged (better Do It Yourself = DIY).
     The secon case - *alright AW* :) : 1 barter for living expenses means squat standard according present time, drinkable water even for some washing (hey, we are washing in drinkable water in my country - asking Apocalypse to happen, not?!:(...), food functional also for the taste etc. Instead of DIY approach, there is more community conections, services and SUPPLY CHAINS. Just few and short and not much and long as in present time, but so short and so few as would be after even "nice" apocalypse.

But 1 barter in each scenario is 1 barter FOR ALL usage - RULES: In the 1st scenario are also less weapons and therefore good gun is for 1 barter and also it is not easy to take over a shelter (remember the traps) and therefore also the shelter is for 1 barter. In the 2nd scenario is more guns but also more of other supplies, therefore although good gun is cheaper than in the first scenario, but also the other supply is cheaper, it is easier to take over a squat (not mentioned just a shleter) and so on.
     And I can change the economics in a way that in 1st scenario would be more guns and still letting good gun for 1 barter - because although gun can be obtained more easyly, than it is not so easy to use, having repaired - and some sheleter(s) can then be obtained easily than by take over. Also in the 2nd scenario can be less guns, but then for not letting a gun cost more than 1 barter, I could just change the other values in opposite direction as above mentioned. /// Uff, do you see it all? :) ///

Therefore it IS IMPORTANT at least for me and the super scenario ;) how much of BARTER FROM ANY VALUABLEs the Operator is giving to the crew in measure of how much the crew making for (even as WITH) the Operator.

Is anyone willing to helping me more directly with the SUPER SCENARIO?! :)  - also as TEMPLATE for scenarios making as was the 1st and 2nd mentioned above.

Since the game's rules steadfastly refuse to answer your questions, you'll have to make up answers yourself. You should make up the answers that best meet the needs of the scenario you're creating.

-Vincent

I bought als the LE boks and I am even using MC playbook "The Afterborn" (young adults n Apocalypse World). I have scenarios "Hatchet city" (authorised by you, dear Vincent, if I understood well) and "Sunken Sydney" (also authorized?) and "The Bowl" (well within the rules of AW) and other sources. So for start I just want to prepare some SPREDSHEET WITH RESOURCE RELATED RULES for making SETTINGS, SCENARIOS etc.

Now I have text file with NOTES WITH ALL RESOURCE RELATED rules and posts as authorized as possible. For related posts I was in much more forums then I posted into, because I want find answers myself much more then bothering anybody with my qestions. I am sending my Gratitude to all who was and si (and will be) posting (and answering me) :). When I make the file organized and even nice enoughf for not feelin shame weh put i onlne, then I will put it online and I will LINK THE FILE HERE also. :) I am thinking about Google Document with editing rights for anyone who heped r want to help with that. I will welcome other and especially beter ideas :).

I understand that you, Vincent, want to keep the rules as *open* as possible. But you put SOME SETTING RULES and even DIRECT RESOURCE RULES in AW (I mean all AW as above mentioned :) ). And as I understand the AW, it is not just rules, but also a setting(s) - at least an *atmosphere* (feelings) which needs some sources SET(ting) ;) ).

So the question about how much is the average cut for the crew from barters done by gigs* is also wider question about how high possibility and speed ror RICHness of the Operar should be allowed.
     Because the Brainer is somehow rich from beginning and in rules is mentioned, that the Brainer can got the barters "easy", but being weird and socially out (scaring even etc.) could be enough for FAIR PLAY. The Hardholder IS RICH BY THE ROLE of being the Hardholder (see sex move ;) ) and the move WEALTH speeks for itself ;).
     The Operator is allowed to reach richness by the Moonlighting - but HOW FAST he can be RICH and HOW? I see the Operatr somewehere between he Hardholder - having "emloyees" (crev X gang) and the Hocus - operating more directly with people (followers + the "Fortune" move). The Operator is closer to the Hocus I think..:
     The Hocus has influence for another people directly (the "Frenzy" move) and also indirectly (throuh the follwers). If the folowers are scattered aroud, independently of the Hocus and of each other (for example one follower in a gang and another in the crew and each other elsewehere), then the followers can make even greater infulence - not focused (as would be if the followers was not so scattered) but very wide.
     The Operator has not such influence, nor the crew (much less people then followers are). So for fair lay, "at least" some (more) barters should be coming for the Operaor, not? :)

Pardon for so long *thinking aloud*... At least anyone ca see how the AW is FASCINATING! :)

So the question about how much is the average cut for the crew from barters done by gigs* is also wider question about how high possibility and speed ror RICHness of the Operar should be allowed.

I think what Vincent is trying to say is that what you choose to "allow" is entirely up to you.  Your game might be resource-rich, with the Operator rolling in barter.  Mine might be resource poor, with the Operator barely scraping by.

This aspect of the game is very open.  There is no hard-and-fast rule.  If you need or want one, you'll have to make it up on your own.

I understood, that Vincent posted "up to me", but after choosing any way for the Operator - what about GAME BALANCE and FAIR PLAY for other characters? The Angel has half crew (2 people if I remember well) and do not have to pay them! The Maestro'D has crew but paying only for events made (like gigs from the Operator). So after SETting the Operator's speed of income, what about the others?

My question therefore is, what is average crew's cut (etc.) for good game BALANCE with the other characters - possibilities?

Migty Munin :), as you wrote, for "rich" seting that means allowing the Operator paying 1 barter for even as much as 4 gigs (which can be 3 barters each!) and having help for obligation(s) for free (!). But after that, then also the Angel could got Infirmary (and crew for free for it) easyly and also the resupply (!) etc. Shortly: enough barter for any character - and now I mean by the word barter something practical and not only some shared value nor undefined valuable(s)-service(s).
    Did I undertood your post well? It sems strange, but it ínterested me - the idea of RICH BUT APOCALYPSE WORLD ;). "Barters are enough as it seems, but is there enoufgh of-from YOU to prevail, progres, procreate (3p;))...?" Do you like that idea also?