Is Carousing too expensive?

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Re: Is Carousing too expensive?
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2012, 11:48:55 PM »
Characters start with 0 wealth.

When a player acquires a small bag of coin, coin-sized gem, or similar, they get 1 wealth.

When the player acquires a large bag of coin, a large gem, or similar, they get 2 wealth.

When the player acquires something uniquely valuable they get 4 wealth.

When a player wants to buy something, tell them the cost. They subtract the cost from their wealth and roll that many + 2 dice, total the two highest. On a 10+ they get it at a good price: reduce their wealth by cost-2. On a 7-9 they get it at the cost you stated, -cost wealth. On a 6- it comes with strings attached, if at all.

Why wealth+2 dice? I get that you want characters to be able to barter or trade for items at wealth 0 but it seems like a bit of a gimme after that.

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sage

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Re: Is Carousing too expensive?
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2012, 11:58:11 AM »
They're losing the dice no matter what, so it doesn't make much of a difference.

Actually the problem right now with it is that a priceier item is more likely to get you a 10+. Oops!

Re: Is Carousing too expensive?
« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2012, 10:58:41 AM »
I also think that carousing is too expensive. We played last night and my thief and a fighter were rewarded 75 coin each by an archmage for doing a job and in the very next scene we dropped 100 coin just to be able to roll Carouse. The dice came up snake-eyes and we ended the session there so I'm sure there will be some interesting developments, but I don't think the characters should have to pay for basically what amounts to getting a hook for the next session. I could have just role-played with the other player and GM and gotten the "rumor of an opportunity" without having to spend almost everything I have. At low levels, especially if there is not enough seeded coin, then it should not be a static 100 coin to roll Carouse. Maybe it can scale somehow to allow low level characters to be able to throw a party (maybe not as grand) and then at higher levels it costs more because the characters are earning more.

And I dislike the new pricing system. When I first started playing DW, plate mail was 50 coin, then in Beta it went up to 200 coin, and now it it 350 coin. I really think a Paladin should start with plate mail armor. Good thing my original character bought all those suits of plate mail early...he's making a killing selling them back at the higher price!

Anyway, I love DW but...

...I hate griping about wealth and value in RP games...


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sage

  • 549
Re: Is Carousing too expensive?
« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2012, 11:27:38 AM »
Superdave, take a look at the monster treasure rules, that should give you an idea of what we're looking at, that should help set the scale. 40 gold is a good amount, but not all that much.

We hate springing changes like this on people, but I really think the money makes more sense now. We're also in line with most editions of D&D, allowing treasure from existing adventures to be used without too much trouble.

Carouse probably needs some rewording. It shouldn't be a hook on the next session, it's a bonus if you're willing to spread your wealth around a little. The hook for the next session is the fact that there's still bad stuff happening and it will happen if the players don't do something (and the creatures behind that bad stuff probably have treasure.

Looking over the monster gold guidelines you can end up with 100 gold from just a couple of monsters. The 3 and 6 results can easily add up to 100 gold with just a few kills.

Re: Is Carousing too expensive?
« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2012, 11:36:05 AM »
Yeah, I think our group has to take a look at those monster treasure rules and seed the treasure accordingly. Too many times we fall into the bad habit of using other RPG standards and just give out X amount of gold because that "sounds right". GM's really need to now the value of items and equipment that's in the rulebook and use that as a guide.

I'm just griping because my thief was all happy with the 25 coin he had in his pocket from last adventure and was on his way to aqcuire more poisons only to realize all the prices went up! Damn inflation!

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sage

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Re: Is Carousing too expensive?
« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2012, 11:36:58 AM »
I know, that sucks. Thanks for putting up with it so we can make the game better!

Re: Is Carousing too expensive?
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2012, 06:03:32 PM »
But, wait... Dave, it's not that the prices went up. You changed editions of the game and the whole economy changed. So, of course your Thief's "25 coins" changes to whatever value that is in the new economy. No big deal.

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stras

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Re: Is Carousing too expensive?
« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2012, 10:59:07 AM »
Original Point: The re-price around 40 seems more reasonable.

On Currency:
The 'old school' or 'original' D&D feel pushes for coins, so I'll throw my 2-cent support in that hat.  But there was at least one suggestion earlier in the thread that I think there are already mechanics for here.

You already have a 'wealth' mechanic in game that I'm surprised you didn't latch onto.  Potions, adventuring kits, books etc have the ability to hold 'charges' which are burned for +1's.  Similarly, wealth is an expendable resource.  You can easily have Bag-of-Coins that you can similarly burn for +'s on acquisition rolls.  Moreover the 'individual Gem' tracking is also possible.  Just write down 'treasure'.  For every 5 charges or individual items in the sack it has 1 weight.

Monster treasure.  Roll 2d6, 6- no treasure.  7-9 one person gains a 'treasure' charge.  10+ spread 3 'treasure' charges amongst the party as you will.

Finally you can do a split good/bad list.

When trying to procure an item expend treasure charges.  Roll + treasure charges spent.  On a 10+  pick 2.  On 7-9 pick 1, GM picks one.  On 6- the GM picks one.
* You acquire the item
* There are strings attached.
* You lose an extra treasure
* The item is of high quality
* The item is of inferior quality
* The merchant likes you and tells you something useful

(Disclaimer: This is off the top of my head, so not polished or tested)

Re: Is Carousing too expensive?
« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2012, 11:54:12 AM »
@ stras: I think that's a pretty neat idea and worth expanding upon.

General note on Carouse - How about setting the base price for Carouse at a set amount per person participating? 100 gp can be a lot if you've only got 2 players. And some people just don't want to Carouse because it's either out of character for their, well, character and/or they don't find value in the move. They can opt out and not spend the money... of course, that also introduces the problem of the character still getting the benefit as it's something that accrues to the party as a whole regardless.

With reference to some players not finding value in Carouse (I have players that think that way), I'm pondering adding one word to the Carouse move. "You hear rumors of an EASY opportunity." "Easy," not referring to the level of the challenge, but rather meaning it's something the PCs can do while doing whatever else it was they or the GM was already planning. Call it a "sub-quest" or alternate goal - the PCs are going to the Forsaken Ruins tomorrow. Rumors of bandits plaguing the trade road that passes by the ruins allow the PCs to pick up a "job" to give them a beatdown for a little moolah. To the extent the PCs are risking a roll and spending their hard-earned cash, it puts it more easily into the realm of "bonus" opportunity than "adventure hook the DM was going to give me anyway but instead made me pay for it."

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noofy

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Re: Is Carousing too expensive?
« Reply #24 on: April 16, 2012, 04:55:00 PM »
Hey Stras! Welcome.
A few of us already came to the same conclusions as you, with very similar mechanical iterations when we first starting playing the game (especially hot on the heels of a AW session), and find it works fine. Sage and Adam have decided to go with the excellent compromise of 'coin' (which is still an abstraction). You can still apply your own further abstracted wealth mechanic or custom moves as you see fit.

If you are interested, I cobbled some relevant moves together over in this thread. Note though that the town ideas have been thoroughly superseded by the far better steading guidelines in the Beta 2.1 rules.

http://apocalypse-world.com/forums/index.php?topic=1183.0

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stras

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Re: Is Carousing too expensive?
« Reply #25 on: April 16, 2012, 11:26:35 PM »
Very cool, thanks for the link.

Makes me wonder if there will be a 'variants and optional rules' section, or a PDF "DLC" as it were.

Re: Is Carousing too expensive?
« Reply #26 on: April 17, 2012, 02:34:21 AM »
Definitely. I know of three DW "DLC" packs in the works, at least.

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stras

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Re: Is Carousing too expensive?
« Reply #27 on: April 17, 2012, 02:52:32 AM »
The number shall be three sir!

But in all seriousness: that's awesome.  Very excited to see what goodies get cooked up.  First things first though (more running, and more reporting to get the base game out).

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Saxon

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Re: Is Carousing too expensive?
« Reply #28 on: April 18, 2012, 02:23:30 PM »
It's good to see all the brainstorming and innovation on this topic.  I really like the potential of the "Steading" aspect of the game.  Anything that develops it in more detail, and makes it more attractive to players -- is alright by me!