Barf Forth Apocalyptica
powered by the apocalypse => Dungeon World => Topic started by: Doug Hare on March 23, 2012, 12:55:48 PM
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I'll post the Actual Play later, but my two players just got out of the Bloodstone Idol adventure, and even though I threw in some more loot to make up for the stuff they missed, and including the bounty on Grundloch's head*, they still didn't have enough gold to feel like spending 100 of it (or even more) on Carousing. They suggested it might be over-priced - what have other people experienced?
Cheers,
Doug
* we pitched the bounty somewhere between an assassination at 120g and a run-of-the-mill killing at 5g, and came out with a figure of 75g. Less than an assassination because no stealth, discretion or secrecy was necessary, and more than a standard kill because the target was a Master of The Arcane Clay.
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Throwing a big party is expensive! Just think how much beer that is...
But yeah, the price lists need a good cleaning. Some items were added with different assumptions.
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As a player and DM, I definitely prefer abstracted wealth. Though I understand it's a classic element of these kinds of games, I really dislike the record-keeping and mundane focus of it. However it can be made so that people aren't counting their coppers but that the lure of treasure is still there, I'm all for that. Admittedly, I don't have any particularly good ideas on this front.
Oddly enough (and though I haven't experienced this yet), I do like that a Carouse should be expensive. If you want to be a baller in town, you gotta make it rain.
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I agree with the notion of abstracted wealth, especially if we could get it into a -1 (Poverty) to +3ish (Rich Beyond The Dreams Of Avarice!) range so Moves could be Roll+Wealth.
D.
Hmmm.
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Why not take it the other way and abstract the meaning of a "big party." Buying a round at the local tavern is a "big party" when you're starting out and you want the kind of outcomes you'd get at a tavern (1gp/head for 20). Throwing a ball in the hopes of meeting wealthy financiers (15gp/head for 60) or financing a festival with the hopes of raising your social status (5gp/head for 150) are on a different scale.
On the topic of carouse, "you hear rumors of an opportunity" and "you gain useful information" seem too similar. The former being a case of the later. What to fill the gap with? What about the ability to add a tag to the steading ('happy, 'productive)? What about the ability to remove a tag from a steading ('fearful, 'starving)? What about to raise your social status or make your name known?
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Abstract wealth doesn't quite do justice to the hauls that adventurers bring back. In general I'm a fan of abstract wealth, but when I worked hard for that one gem I want to track it individually, not just +1 wealth.
(There's also the matter that abstract wealth needs to scale further than -3 to +3. I'd probably mix in some Burning Wheel and have wealth measure in dice. When roll wealth you roll all the dice and take the highest two to add together. That way we have an infinite range, more wealth is better, but we can still have it read like a move with 6-, 7-9, 10+)
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Abstract wealth doesn't quite do justice to the hauls that adventurers bring back. In general I'm a fan of abstract wealth, but when I worked hard for that one gem I want to track it individually, not just +1 wealth.
(There's also the matter that abstract wealth needs to scale further than -3 to +3. I'd probably mix in some Burning Wheel and have wealth measure in dice. When roll wealth you roll all the dice and take the highest two to add together. That way we have an infinite range, more wealth is better, but we can still have it read like a move with 6-, 7-9, 10+)
That's a really good point. Why bother risking prying the gem out of the statue of the evil god? I like that Burning Wheel method though I haven't seen it in play. Any chance of seeing something like that made official? In the interim, how does the DM grant those extra dice? What's a good rule of thumb?
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[ Why bother risking prying the gem out of the statue of the evil god?
It might be magic? It might stop the statue rampaging around, crushing adventurers with hammer-blows from the massive stone fists some sculptor carved so lovingly all those years ago?
Or it might just make the difference between Wealth 3 and Wealth 4 for the loot?
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I was, for a while, trying to toy with with roll+digits of gold spent minus one.
0-9gp = +0.............peasant
10-99gp = +1..........middle class
100-999 = +2..........well to do/nobility/wealthy merchant
1000+ = +3.............Kings/Popes/Dragons/Duke Walton/Baron Gates/Lady Oprah
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Characters start with 0 wealth.
When a player acquires a small bag of coin, coin-sized gem, or similar, they get 1 wealth.
When the player acquires a large bag of coin, a large gem, or similar, they get 2 wealth.
When the player acquires something uniquely valuable they get 4 wealth.
When a player wants to buy something, tell them the cost. They subtract the cost from their wealth and roll that many + 2 dice, total the two highest. On a 10+ they get it at a good price: reduce their wealth by cost-2. On a 7-9 they get it at the cost you stated, -cost wealth. On a 6- it comes with strings attached, if at all.
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That's just a stab at it. I actually think that tracking wealth in some more concrete way is important, but I agree that the price lists can be wonky.
I'm thinking about making a cost system similar to the monster system so the GM can make up costs for goods and services on the fly.
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Ooooh, I like that Sage, especially as a move to be made before carouse! Really? It'll cost that much to throw a good party? Oh bugger, now it definitely has strings attached too? What does that mean when I befriend a useful NPC?!
As some of you know, we dabbled around with this concept when DW first emerged from Apoc D&D, and I found that the abstracted 'Wealth' stat was ok in implementation. But it sort of worked better as an abstraction of the barter economy of AW. I thought it needed a more 'resources' type feel (as in Burning Wheel), where fluid gold and gems is more of a liquid asset, whereas 'wealth' was more a measure of the adventurer's total resource potential: domicile and safe storage, retainers, magical miscellany, favours from friends in high places, that sort of thing.
I guess it depends on how much of a fiscal game your group wants to play. Currently in our long running game we still have a 'wealth' stat that is capped at +5 (though no one has got there yet) which represents their overall ability to manage their 'money'.
Unless there has been an issue recovering loots in the dungeon (we still use the loot move - so cool), its assumed the takings from the adventure allow a carouse style party, or the players can increase their Wealth by 1. They generally choose to Carouse if only for the adventure hooks they can sunsequently author. Though the one time they stole a dragon's hoard I allowed them both the Carouse and the Wealth +1 :)
If they want to buy something and its worth a roll (its fictionally worth making a move over) We have a move taken straight from the Apoc D&D ruleset. Generally a 7-9 is a hard bargain, either lose one Wealth or have strings very much attached. A miss is usually both!
I target their Wealth stat rarely through GM moves, but sometimes its just the ugly choice or consequence the story needs.
That said, when playing a one-shot, I use the gold as listed and it works fine too :)
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I spent all day messing with question-based systems to establish the value of different things and it just isn't quite working. I think we're better off just making one clear usable price list than trying to make system for any possible thing you could want to assign a price to.
That said, yeah, we're totally up for revising the price list. It needs it.
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Yes, a good price list is golden! Extremely practical and useful in play. DW already has a pretty good one.
Wealth/Resources rolls are cool, but maybe they're more for managing your keep or wizard's tower down the line.
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We used an abstract wealth system for Living Dungeon World, with many between-sessions moves being "roll+Treasure spent." The idea was that Treasure gained in a dungeon was usually barter, not coins on the realm. Each Treasure was worth a certain number of GP based on level (15 gp/1 Treasure at 1st-3rd level, 25 gp/1 Treasure at 4th-6th, etc.). You could "cash in" Treasure for gold, or spend it on the downtime moves (Seek Hirelings, Conduct Research, Tithe, Carouse, Reclaim a Stronghold, etc.). I think we'd said that any Treasure not spend on something was lost, unless you had a Stronghold to keep it in.
Anyway, it worked really well for our living-campaign convention environment, but it may be too abstract for some.
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Characters start with 0 wealth.
When a player acquires a small bag of coin, coin-sized gem, or similar, they get 1 wealth.
When the player acquires a large bag of coin, a large gem, or similar, they get 2 wealth.
When the player acquires something uniquely valuable they get 4 wealth.
When a player wants to buy something, tell them the cost. They subtract the cost from their wealth and roll that many + 2 dice, total the two highest. On a 10+ they get it at a good price: reduce their wealth by cost-2. On a 7-9 they get it at the cost you stated, -cost wealth. On a 6- it comes with strings attached, if at all.
Why wealth+2 dice? I get that you want characters to be able to barter or trade for items at wealth 0 but it seems like a bit of a gimme after that.
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They're losing the dice no matter what, so it doesn't make much of a difference.
Actually the problem right now with it is that a priceier item is more likely to get you a 10+. Oops!
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I also think that carousing is too expensive. We played last night and my thief and a fighter were rewarded 75 coin each by an archmage for doing a job and in the very next scene we dropped 100 coin just to be able to roll Carouse. The dice came up snake-eyes and we ended the session there so I'm sure there will be some interesting developments, but I don't think the characters should have to pay for basically what amounts to getting a hook for the next session. I could have just role-played with the other player and GM and gotten the "rumor of an opportunity" without having to spend almost everything I have. At low levels, especially if there is not enough seeded coin, then it should not be a static 100 coin to roll Carouse. Maybe it can scale somehow to allow low level characters to be able to throw a party (maybe not as grand) and then at higher levels it costs more because the characters are earning more.
And I dislike the new pricing system. When I first started playing DW, plate mail was 50 coin, then in Beta it went up to 200 coin, and now it it 350 coin. I really think a Paladin should start with plate mail armor. Good thing my original character bought all those suits of plate mail early...he's making a killing selling them back at the higher price!
Anyway, I love DW but...
...I hate griping about wealth and value in RP games...
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Superdave, take a look at the monster treasure rules, that should give you an idea of what we're looking at, that should help set the scale. 40 gold is a good amount, but not all that much.
We hate springing changes like this on people, but I really think the money makes more sense now. We're also in line with most editions of D&D, allowing treasure from existing adventures to be used without too much trouble.
Carouse probably needs some rewording. It shouldn't be a hook on the next session, it's a bonus if you're willing to spread your wealth around a little. The hook for the next session is the fact that there's still bad stuff happening and it will happen if the players don't do something (and the creatures behind that bad stuff probably have treasure.
Looking over the monster gold guidelines you can end up with 100 gold from just a couple of monsters. The 3 and 6 results can easily add up to 100 gold with just a few kills.
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Yeah, I think our group has to take a look at those monster treasure rules and seed the treasure accordingly. Too many times we fall into the bad habit of using other RPG standards and just give out X amount of gold because that "sounds right". GM's really need to now the value of items and equipment that's in the rulebook and use that as a guide.
I'm just griping because my thief was all happy with the 25 coin he had in his pocket from last adventure and was on his way to aqcuire more poisons only to realize all the prices went up! Damn inflation!
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I know, that sucks. Thanks for putting up with it so we can make the game better!
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But, wait... Dave, it's not that the prices went up. You changed editions of the game and the whole economy changed. So, of course your Thief's "25 coins" changes to whatever value that is in the new economy. No big deal.
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Original Point: The re-price around 40 seems more reasonable.
On Currency:
The 'old school' or 'original' D&D feel pushes for coins, so I'll throw my 2-cent support in that hat. But there was at least one suggestion earlier in the thread that I think there are already mechanics for here.
You already have a 'wealth' mechanic in game that I'm surprised you didn't latch onto. Potions, adventuring kits, books etc have the ability to hold 'charges' which are burned for +1's. Similarly, wealth is an expendable resource. You can easily have Bag-of-Coins that you can similarly burn for +'s on acquisition rolls. Moreover the 'individual Gem' tracking is also possible. Just write down 'treasure'. For every 5 charges or individual items in the sack it has 1 weight.
Monster treasure. Roll 2d6, 6- no treasure. 7-9 one person gains a 'treasure' charge. 10+ spread 3 'treasure' charges amongst the party as you will.
Finally you can do a split good/bad list.
When trying to procure an item expend treasure charges. Roll + treasure charges spent. On a 10+ pick 2. On 7-9 pick 1, GM picks one. On 6- the GM picks one.
* You acquire the item
* There are strings attached.
* You lose an extra treasure
* The item is of high quality
* The item is of inferior quality
* The merchant likes you and tells you something useful
(Disclaimer: This is off the top of my head, so not polished or tested)
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@ stras: I think that's a pretty neat idea and worth expanding upon.
General note on Carouse - How about setting the base price for Carouse at a set amount per person participating? 100 gp can be a lot if you've only got 2 players. And some people just don't want to Carouse because it's either out of character for their, well, character and/or they don't find value in the move. They can opt out and not spend the money... of course, that also introduces the problem of the character still getting the benefit as it's something that accrues to the party as a whole regardless.
With reference to some players not finding value in Carouse (I have players that think that way), I'm pondering adding one word to the Carouse move. "You hear rumors of an EASY opportunity." "Easy," not referring to the level of the challenge, but rather meaning it's something the PCs can do while doing whatever else it was they or the GM was already planning. Call it a "sub-quest" or alternate goal - the PCs are going to the Forsaken Ruins tomorrow. Rumors of bandits plaguing the trade road that passes by the ruins allow the PCs to pick up a "job" to give them a beatdown for a little moolah. To the extent the PCs are risking a roll and spending their hard-earned cash, it puts it more easily into the realm of "bonus" opportunity than "adventure hook the DM was going to give me anyway but instead made me pay for it."
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Hey Stras! Welcome.
A few of us already came to the same conclusions as you, with very similar mechanical iterations when we first starting playing the game (especially hot on the heels of a AW session), and find it works fine. Sage and Adam have decided to go with the excellent compromise of 'coin' (which is still an abstraction). You can still apply your own further abstracted wealth mechanic or custom moves as you see fit.
If you are interested, I cobbled some relevant moves together over in this thread. Note though that the town ideas have been thoroughly superseded by the far better steading guidelines in the Beta 2.1 rules.
http://apocalypse-world.com/forums/index.php?topic=1183.0 (http://apocalypse-world.com/forums/index.php?topic=1183.0)
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Very cool, thanks for the link.
Makes me wonder if there will be a 'variants and optional rules' section, or a PDF "DLC" as it were.
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Definitely. I know of three DW "DLC" packs in the works, at least.
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The number shall be three sir!
But in all seriousness: that's awesome. Very excited to see what goodies get cooked up. First things first though (more running, and more reporting to get the base game out).
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It's good to see all the brainstorming and innovation on this topic. I really like the potential of the "Steading" aspect of the game. Anything that develops it in more detail, and makes it more attractive to players -- is alright by me!