Beta 2 Questions / Feedback

Can lying be Defy Danger? Sure! Can lying be Parley? That too!

That's why there isn't a lying move. Because lying is a tool. It'd be like a move for when you swing you sword. Not at an enemy, not with the intent of cutting them up. Just when you swing your sword.

There are lots of good suggestions here on ways to handle it. All of them could be used depending on the situation. We'll probably add some examples like them, sure, but boy do we have a lot of text already.

My advice is: When in doubt, take the easy route first. Lying = Defy Danger + CHA.

If for some reason that doesn't work for you in play, then go to the trouble to make a custom move (making custom moves to patch holes in your specific instance of DW is one of the GM's jobs). But for goodness sake don't start by giving yourself extra work.

(P.S. Hack-and-Slash and Volley are slightly tweaked versions of Defy Danger. They're good models to use to build your own tweaked danger moves for other stats, should you need them.)

So here's how I'd handle lying. Consider this an example from the book (it might become one).

Adam: I walk past the guard like I belong.
Me: Yeah, he's just some shlub. He looks at your uniform, nods, you're in. The guards at the palace are likely to be more careful.
(No danger, so no Defy Danger. The Guard's already doing what he wants, so no Parley.)

Later on...
Me: As you're eating you notice the Commander is watching you closely, even with the mess hall full of men. Nothing aggressive, just kind of puzzled. What do you do?
Adam: My bard has no fear! I walk right up to him, salute. "Sir, is there some way I can be of service, sir? I'm new to the regiment and would like to make the best impression possible."
Me: Sounds like you're Defying the Danger of being found out with your personality? +Cha?
Adam: Sure 'nuff.
(There's danger, but the lie doesn't really change someone's mind about anything, so no Parley.)

And yet later:
Me: The guard steps in front of the entry to the palace, barring your way.
Adam: Okay, Full Metal Jacket time. "Son, what in the seven hells are you doing? You want to be on latrine duty for the rest of this little war? Cause I will knock you so far down the chain of command you will not see daylight for a year."
Me: Well, you have the leverage of being an officer, and there's certainly enough officers here that he would expect to see some that he didn't know. Sounds like Parley.
Adam: Great!
(The lie here isn't really in risk. He's lying, sure, but the guard has no reason at all to suspect that. But on a 7-9 I'm totally going to ask him for some proof. This is only because the fictional situation means that there's so suspicion of lying. If this guard was suspicious)

How Sage and John handle it is pretty much what I do to. Though Jeremy's custom move is sweet and I think I'll include it as an Advance for the Bard :)

I think in some ways having a smaller set of core moves with wider applications is far more creative than having a move for every specific  D&D 3rd ed skill iteration possible. As John says, part of the GM responsibility (and fun!) is filling in the narrative gaps with cool custom moves.

Defy Danger is the quintessential skeleton in my mind. Sure there are hold based moves and carry forward moves and just straight mechanical bonuses, but the fictional possibilities given by those three near miss suggestions of Ugly Choice, Hard Bargain, and Worse Outcome are such wonderful cues for 'customisation' by the GM.

Sage's examples make sense to me. In general I'm a little leery about how quickly people seem to jump to the "lies are Defy Danger with Charisma!" position. To my mind, Defy Danger ought to be about defying a specific fictional danger. "Not being believed" isn't always a danger. If the consequence is an NPC thinking "huh, there's some goofball here claiming to be someone he's not", that's not a danger. I can definitely imagine situations in which lying or fast-talking to extricate yourself from a sticky situation would be Defy Danger, but situations shouldn't magically become Defy Danger because your D&D-based intuitions say "there should be a role here." (But I guess I'm off in the wilderness on my dislike of the Defy Danger = catchall move idea, so I should stop harping on it).

Personally, I'm not too concerned about the lack of a lying move. Telling lies doesn't give you magical powers, and most people aren't sitting around waiting to pounce on liars, so "telling a lie" isn't always some critical juncture in the fiction that demands special attention. Lies are sometimes a means to an end, and I think Parley ought to be fine most of the time for proactive bluffing or trickery if people weren't importing expectations from other games. (Expanding Discern Realities to include some choices that were easier to apply to people-reading might be something to consider, though. If people know they have avenues of trickery that are guaranteed to work on someone they'd probably be less skittish about pursuing fiction that doesn't map to an explicit move).

Well, yeah. If there's no danger you can't defy danger. Lying isn't the trigger, defying danger is.

Personally, If a player says they lie to achieve something they couldn't by being truthful, I always ask the players 'So tell us your lie. What do you say?'. Elucidating the character's speech focuses the fiction. It allows us to see if there is danger or leverage present. Is there danger involved? No - then they just lie and the story moves on. Is there leverage on another character involved? No - then they are just talking and we keep roleplaying until we need to roll.

Lies are great, especially when they are told. Just saying that you are lying is avoiding the grand possibility of actually having to say it out loud.

Great answers everyone, this thread become very interesting and enlightening, but I liked more Dan's approaches:

(Expanding Discern Realities to include some choices that were easier to apply to people-reading might be something to consider, though. If people know they have avenues of trickery that are guaranteed to work on someone they'd probably be less skittish about pursuing fiction that doesn't map to an explicit move).

Maybe expanding Discern Realities options write up would be a great idea.

Thanks for the very motivated answers guys, You all sold me the idea about my "lying complain".

That leads us to the problem: should bards be better to avoid the dangers of lying?

Are you including Jeremy's "Silver Tongue" move as an initial move or advanced?

For my group(s) Paulo, I have a list of custom moves printed on a laminated sheet separate to the playbooks and basic moves. If the fiction warrants it, I might just say 'sounds like you are ............'

Jeremy's Silver-Tongued is listed on this sheet as an advanced 'Bard' move. Though I'm sure someone might take it under multi-class dabbler :)

Don't force custom moves onto the game, it works fine as is. Play it 'out of the box' first, and add in your own (or Jeremy's in this instance) creativity over the top. Its a wonderful way to customise the ruleset to your group's vision of DW.

In the second portion of my example I probably should have made the danger a bit clearer. In my head there's this implication that the commander is paying enough attention and likely enough to take action that there's a danger of being found out. That isn't all that clear from what I posted.

Hi Sage,

Upon reading chapter 12 and through I've found two very minor typos, but I'm relating it here too.

On page 123:
"When the doom you show signs of is a onslaught of goblin arrows, if the players don't so something to get out of the way, you can follow through with damage as a hard move". It should be "do".

On page 127:
"No need to have the cultist overlord waving a placard and screaming in the infernal tounge every single time." It should be "tongue".

Keep on the good work guys!

Btw, any new on beta 2.1?

I'd expect Beta 2.1 this week. And it has horses and crossbows!

Btw, any new on beta 2.1?

Should be news.

Couldn't resist!

Quote from: P2 on April 03, 2012, 10:46:08 AM

Btw, any new on beta 2.1?

Should be news.

Couldn't resist!

Lol =p

Cellphone keyboards sucks =p