Beta 2 Questions / Feedback

Sorry, I didn't mean to come across as harsh. I've jsut tried many times to write the "tell a lie move" and wanted to share why it has never made it in.

When you Parley, you got somethig the target wants and tries to bargain with it. When liyng, you are triyng to deceive the target, to mislead it (to get free from an akward situation or to pretend to be someone else, etc) i think that they are very different things and parley doesn't covers it.

I liked your interpretation of it as just defying danger with Cha, so, give bards +1 foward on it seems prety fair to me.

Yeah, that's certainly an option.

As far as lying not being parley: if you're not trying to get someone to do something, why are we rolling for the lie?

If you want something more specific, you could always use custom moves - either a custom character move or a custom move based on who you're trying to deceive. 

Sorry, I didn't mean to come across as harsh. I've jsut tried many times to write the "tell a lie move" and wanted to share why it has never made it in.

Don't worry, I didn't take it as harsh.

I was just arguing it too like the D&D bluff skill. As I said, maybe "deceive" is a better word to describe the fictional situation. Maybe it could be even a basic move: when you try to deceive other...

I personaly don't like defy danger with every stat. I understood you did it for the easy of sake, but sometimes is hard to conclude the fiction "i'll tell the guard I'm the new captain and i want to enter these gates" as defying danger with Cha...

Yeah, that's certainly an option.

As far as lying not being parley: if you're not trying to get someone to do something, why are we rolling for the lie?

'cos there's a chance of failing. Maybe you've gotten under someone scrutiny and want to get free. There's something you want the target to do (set you free) but you got nothing they want and doesn't have leverage (requisites for parley), so you lie, mislead, deceive, pretend to be someone else, etc.

Yes, but (and I think I added this to the text) what is a lie but the appearance of leverage you don't have?

Making a move for lying tends to work out oddly. If the move dictates that they believe what you say you end up with one roll that's kind of like mind control without the magic. It feels like there needs to be more nuance there, which I think the back-and-forth of the GM moves offers. You lie to get out and so the GM looks at their moves and counters with something. A soft move.

Ok, I understand the "pretend to have leverage you don't" thing =]

So, that lead us to "+1 foward" on those especific rolls (discern realities for sensitive information and defy danger with Cha for deceiving...

I see most lies as Parley. I see all other lies as not a move at all - the DM rolls with it or doesn't depending on context. What I've seen is that "leverage" is too narrowly defined by many players and DMs. (And some back and forth between PC and NPC can help the PC find that leverage or at least identify it so it can be obtained through subsequent actions.)

If the issue is with wanting the bard to be particularly good at lying as a means to play up that archetype, that's already been accomplished by making them Charisma-focused in my opinion.

Maybe what you need isn't a move for lying, but for handling the danger and fallout the lie introduces?  Defy danger (with +Cha) works pretty well, but the bard could be better at it, get more room to manuever.  Something like this?

Silver Tongue
When you use falsehood, bluster, or trickery to avoid suspicion or get out of trouble, roll +Cha. On 10+, hold 3.  On 7-9, hold 1.  Spend your hold 1 for 1 to:

• Move about or manuever unchallenged
• Withstand direct scrutiny or questioning
• Direct suspicion or attention elsewhere

Any of those things you'd spend hold on, they'd be things you'd normally roll +Cha to Defy Danger, right?  But the silver tongued bard, he gets to do that on a 7-9 with his 1 hold.  And on a 10+, he's got the confidence to keep pushing it.

But on a miss?  Yeah, things go south on him quick like.

Maybe what you need isn't a move for lying, but for handling the danger and fallout the lie introduces?  Defy danger (with +Cha) works pretty well, but the bard could be better at it, get more room to manuever.  Something like this?

Silver Tongue
When you use falsehood, bluster, or trickery to avoid suspicion or get out of trouble, roll +Cha. On 10+, hold 3.  On 7-9, hold 1.  Spend your hold 1 for 1 to:

• Move about or manuever unchallenged
• Withstand direct scrutiny or questioning
• Direct suspicion or attention elsewhere

Any of those things you'd spend hold on, they'd be things you'd normally roll +Cha to Defy Danger, right?  But the silver tongued bard, he gets to do that on a 7-9 with his 1 hold.  And on a 10+, he's got the confidence to keep pushing it.

But on a miss?  Yeah, things go south on him quick like.

Good one Jeremy!

That's why is good to brainstorm. Sometimes you think at something but can't make it thru, but sometimes you set a sparkle that others complement.

We haven't tried beta 2 yet, but one of the guys in the game I'm running keeps getting hung up on the "there's no bluff move!" thing. I'm not sure I have a handle on it exactly, but I think the problem is that he has trouble framing what he wants in terms of directing the NPC to do a specific thing -- since I don't notice anything implied for the NPC to do when he's "bluffing" I don't say "that sounds like Parley, roll+CHA", and when he doesn't get the mechanical reinforcement he expects based on intuitions he's built up from other games about when the dice get rolled he backs off, saying "oh, there's no bluff move..." instead of pursuing what he was doing in the fiction. As an analogy, instead of "Listen guard, I'm the new captain, and you need to report to your new post right now!", it's more like "Listen guard, I'm the new captain! <looks at GM expectantly.>". (I also think the "ask you for something"/"promise" phrasing makes the move read like it's only about explicit verbal requests, so that may make it harder for people to parse implied ideas into the framework of the move). The wording of the move changed a bit in the new beta so maybe it will be smoother for us now.

Here's where a list of ten or so examples of triggers in the move section would help.  That way you could illustrate a number of ways a move could be applied.

We haven't tried beta 2 yet, but one of the guys in the game I'm running keeps getting hung up on the "there's no bluff move!" thing. I'm not sure I have a handle on it exactly, but I think the problem is that he has trouble framing what he wants in terms of directing the NPC to do a specific thing -- since I don't notice anything implied for the NPC to do when he's "bluffing" I don't say "that sounds like Parley, roll+CHA", and when he doesn't get the mechanical reinforcement he expects based on intuitions he's built up from other games about when the dice get rolled he backs off, saying "oh, there's no bluff move..." instead of pursuing what he was doing in the fiction.

I find this would be an opportunity to just keep asking the player questions until you figure out what he wants the NPC to do in specific terms. On a surface level he wants the guard to believe him (to use your example), but why? What's his ultimate goal - sneak into the barracks? Once that's been identified, it's just a matter of figuring out *what* the PC needs to manipulate the guard into letting him have his way. All of that stimulates some good conversation. Eventually it should boil down to a Parley or at least the knowledge of what leverage the PC will need to get in order to do a Parley later.

If it's just a lying for the sake of lying, it's not a move and the NPC just does whatever would be appropriate to the scene. "You're the new captain, huh? I didn't get that memo. Let me go check with my sergeant. Wait right here, please. [Walks away.] Okay, Bard, do you want to stick around and press your luck?"

Isn't a straight-up lie like "I'm the new captain" just Defy Danger with +Cha?

There's definitely a danger (they don't believe you and act accordingly).   If you succeed, you've now got leverage to Parley with (presumed authority).  On a 7-9, there are all sorts of worse outcomes, hard bargains, or ugly choices to deal with.

Worse outcome:  "You're the new captain, huh?  So... what happened to Vince?"  (You've got to lie again! Or discern realities and realize he's testing you, Vince wasn't the former captain. You're not out of danger yet.)

Hard bargain:  "You're the new captain, huh?" <looks over his shoulder slyly> "Yeah, sure.  You bring that 200 gp bonus I was promised for overtime?" <winks>

Ugly choice:  "You're the... wha'?  I didn't hear nuthin' 'bout this, lemme ask the sergeant."  He steps towards a closed door, you can tell he's about to hammer on it and call for someone.  You've got a split second where you could jump him before he does.  Wanna?

(Totally agree that examples like this would help.)