different advanced improvements?

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different advanced improvements?
« on: April 18, 2011, 01:16:39 PM »
I'm just fishing for opinions.  The list of advanced improvements is the same on all the playbooks, right?  Why is that?  Would it be a problem to make one with different advanced options?

Re: different advanced improvements?
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2011, 01:56:15 PM »
No they aren't the same...

For example, the Gunlugger is able to attract a gang and the Brainer isn't...
We should look carefully at it... The different improvements are part of the color of the playbooks.

Re: different advanced improvements?
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2011, 03:57:57 PM »
Silerias : he's talking about the five advanced options. And they're the same for each playbook.

I've been wondering about advancing playbook moves, like the Vision of Death or the brainer's moves. Direct Brain Whisper Projection could mark a NPC as "yours", etc. But in the end, I've got enough with the "basic" (eh) advanced stuff we're barely toying with.

Re: different advanced improvements?
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2011, 03:58:56 PM »
He's referring to advanced improvements, the ones you take after the 5th:
__ get +1 to any stat (+3 max)
__ retire your character (to safety)
__ create a second character to play
__ change your character to a new type
__ choose 3 basic moves and advance them
__ advance the other 4 basic moves


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lumpley

  • 1293
Re: different advanced improvements?
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2011, 04:23:09 PM »
I'd hesitate to create a playbook that's missing any of those 6 ungiven future improvements. You'd want to make sure you have good reasons.

Adding new playbook-specific ones would be perfectly fine.

Re: different advanced improvements?
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2011, 06:56:49 PM »

I think if I ran the game again I would seriously consider removing 'advance the other 4 basic moves' -- and it's an advance I have consciously avoided as a player. I found it very enjoyable to choose which three moves I would 'open up' when I took the first advance of this kind; it felt a bit like choosing specializations, or particular strengths of my character, and therefore further forming her identity. Knowing that I could just use the very next advance to open up the remaining moves -- and that this would then make my character identical to all other highly-experienced PCs, instead of thoughtfully-specialized -- kind of took the edge off.

Not that I think opening all the moves is terrible, I just think it's better if you only get to pick 3 of the super-opportunities to make available to your character going forward.

Re: different advanced improvements?
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2011, 10:19:28 PM »
Yup, I feel the same way, Daniel.

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Chroma

  • 259
Re: different advanced improvements?
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2011, 10:38:23 PM »
Not that I think opening all the moves is terrible, I just think it's better if you only get to pick 3 of the super-opportunities to make available to your character going forward.
Wow, I'm totally implementing this in my next AW game!
"If you get shot enough times, your body will actually build up immunity to bullets. The real trick lies in surviving the first dozen or so..."
-- Pope Nag, RPG.net - UNKNOWN ARMIES

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lumpley

  • 1293
Re: different advanced improvements?
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2011, 11:15:54 PM »
You guys are nuts, but knock yourselves out!

Re: different advanced improvements?
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2011, 11:17:02 PM »
Yeah, I kind of liked it better when my Battlebabe only had open your brain, read a sitch, and seduce/manipulate opened, instead of all seven moves. Maybe instead of advancing the other four, you could switch what three were opened. That would be interesting.

Christopher, what kind of playbook-specific advanced moves were you thinking of? Any particular ideas?

Re: different advanced improvements?
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2011, 09:38:51 AM »
Yeah, over here I'm working through some ideas for a Witch playbook.  I have this system involving a mystic focus and gathering power that fuels rituals.  There are all kinds of problems with this, but one of them that was kind of nagging at me and then was pointed out plainly by Michael is that they sort of overlap the function of this move:

Quote
The universe kneels: when you prepare an ad hoc ritual to impose your will on the universe, tell the MC what you want. Your MC will tell you "sure, no problem, but..." and then 1 to 4 of the following:
- it's going to take hours/days/weeks/months of attention;
- first you're going to have to suffer/sacrifice/acquire/consume/learn/wait for ____;
- you're going to need ____ to help you with it;
- it's going to cost you a fuckton of jingle;
- it's going to require power from your focus;
- it's going to mean exposing yourself (plus colleagues) to serious danger;
- it'll only last for a while before things revert to normal;
- your change will only affect/exist within this small (defined) area;
- it'll have unintended consequences;
- it won't be quite as good as you're looking for;
- this is the only time you'll be able to do this;
- someone or some-thing will notice the change as you commit it;

The MC might throw an "or" between some of these conditions but will more likely connect them all with "and."Once you've gathered and accomplished any prerequisites, your reality-bending ritual is available to you this one time. Maybe you still have a choice or maybe it's already happening, based on circumstance. The MC will detail the situation for you.
So one of the options I was thinking about was replacing safe retirement with this move which Scott thought was a bad idea.  I didn't remember reading an analysis of this practice over here, so I asked.

I'm leaning away from that solution now, but that's how I got here and it's a good discussion to have anyway.

Re: different advanced improvements?
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2011, 10:50:15 PM »
Here's a few optional advanced improvements:

__ work with your MC to make a 12+ clause for a couple of your playbook moves
__ pick something that is currently true; tell the MC it has to stays that way, preserved from the blood and shit and harm of Apocalypse World, growing and glowing
__ turn your character into a Front or Threat, which you still play, but according to the MC guidelines; when someone rolls a failure, gesture to the MC if you have you have a good move to make and the MC can choose whether to defer to you

Re: different advanced improvements?
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2011, 11:27:56 PM »
Holy shit Jonathan, that last one is cool! So many possibilities!

There used to be "become co_GM" right?

No reason why you couldn't just stat up a front you wanted to play. That would be sweet!

Re: different advanced improvements?
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2011, 01:30:07 PM »
I wondered about this, too, here:

http://apocalypse-world.com/forums/index.php?topic=1061.0

I also don't like how that second advance seems much less... interesting.

But I haven't played AW to get that far, so I'm just idly speculating!

Vincent, do you want to share why you think we're nuts? I mean, you made that choice for a reason: it's probably a smart one, just one we're not seeing ourselves just yet.

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Orion

  • 69
Re: different advanced improvements?
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2011, 03:02:08 PM »
Frankly, I don't think it matters much either way.  If I removed the "open the other four moves" option, it would be because that's actually very unexciting for most characters.  I mean, there are seven basic moves.  Advanced read a sitch and advanced read a person are called out in the rulebook for being rarely useful.  Act under fire also doesn't really specify what it does, and I suspect that in many playgroups it's really not that useful either. 

The big deal moves to advance are go aggro and manipulate, which both give well-defined and game-changing benefits.  Seize by force and open your brain are also potentially attractive, depending on your game.  (Open your brain could be good, but gives very little guidance so it's as the whim of the MC.  Seize by Force gives clearly defined, useful benefits.  But I played 5 session of this game without seing seize by force used once.) 

Considering that advancing a move is only useful if you're good enough at that move to make a 12 with any regularity, any given character is unlikely to have more than 3 or 4 moves worth unlocking anyway.