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Messages - Scrape

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16
AW:Dark Age / Re: I miss Going Aggro and Manipulate
« on: March 12, 2014, 11:18:23 AM »
I'm happy with all these answers, thanks guys! I especially like the idea that the roll still stands, but the target gets to change their answer. That's cool.

@Irminsul: I just wanna say that you are a great poster, thanks for helping me parse this out. I never had problems with Aggro, personally, but those are all great examples. The whole aggro/seize debate was nervewracking so I'm happy with some more definite moves. This game is shaping up well, I think. Cool cool.

17
AW:Dark Age / Re: I miss Going Aggro and Manipulate
« on: March 11, 2014, 11:11:44 PM »
I feel like Praion already answered your question.

So I'll expand: Draw Someone Out is the manipulation move! After the lord insults you (or maybe before you demand something), you Draw Them Out and ask "how could my character get the lord to swear fealty". Then the MC gives you the leverage you need to get in order to make him comply. No need to roll a manipulation move on him once you have whatever it is he wants.

Or at least that's how I read it.

Yeah, using Draw Out as a manipulation move is great. I like that move quite a bit, as mentioned in the OP, so the more I get to use it the happier I'll be. But I don't think it covers "well now I pull out a sword, last chance, buddy." There's something else going on there.

18
AW:Dark Age / Re: Proposition with Dragon Herald
« on: March 11, 2014, 10:52:25 PM »
Hmmm, I read that playbook as very much saying "there is a literal dragon, and it will treat you as an equal." There's no reason you couldn't slightly tweak the playbook to be about any other doom, though: a plague or anything. I bet it would rule! But it'd be different for sure. This playbook promises a big-ass dragon to me, real and deadly.

19
AW:Dark Age / Re: I miss Going Aggro and Manipulate
« on: March 11, 2014, 10:36:56 PM »
Hmmmm, maybe my question isn't really about Claiming, it's about escalation. Let me try to phrase it a bit differently:

If a character says "I pull out my sword and demand fealty," right away just like that, you'd probably go "Oh, you're Claiming Your Right! Roll for it!" Makes sense, yeah?

However, if she says "I remind him who my parents are and demand fealty," then you're also probably gonna say the same thing: "oh, you're Claiming Your Right!" This also makes sense, right?

And then let's say the lord goes "No way, you cowardly swine" like in our running example. At that point, the circumstances have changed. The lord has refused and is insulting the PC; time for the character to react again. If she wants to attack and make an example of the lord, it's easy to see how the rules accommodate that. Buuuuuut, let's say the character doesn't want to kill this lord, maybe doesn't even want to hurt him, she just wants to show him she means business. So now she's all "I pull out my sword and demand fealty for really real this time."

This is, fictionally speaking, a totally legit next step. The player is escalating the situation: now it's all about threats and her willingness to back it up. The lord could totally change his mind- steel is drawn! Things got heavy! Maybe he felt confident before but is now shaken. Maybe not, maybe he's still gonna say "you and your fealty can rot in hell."

But I'm not gonna ask my player to roll another Claim right after the first one; that's weird, right? So right now it feels awkward to me, this idea that a player can make a legitimate escalation and I'm kinda wondering how to accommodate that with the new Moves. That's what the real crux of this question is: can you escalate your demand after a refusal? If so, is it just the same Move again?

Does this make sense?

(edit: I'm not trying to move the goalposts on this, I'm really curious how this would resolve with the new Moves, is all. Thanks for the discussion so far! I keep thinking that maybe just using social leverage isn't Claiming Your Right at all. Maybe the move doesn't trigger until the character has at least implied retribution or consequences, and that's what really makes it a Claim. I'm not sure, though.)

20
AW:Dark Age / Re: I miss Going Aggro and Manipulate
« on: March 11, 2014, 05:40:31 PM »
I don't have a problem with Claim Your Rights; in fact I really like it. This is about me missing Go Aggro and Manipulate, and trying to see of Claim works for those cases. If it doesn't, then I'm curious what to do when a player uses leverage or threats to get what they want, or when they make a demand but aren't going full-on battle with it. Know what I mean?

I don't want to necessarily change Claim, I wanna know what to do with an Aggro type situation in Dark Age.

21
AW:Dark Age / Re: I miss Going Aggro and Manipulate
« on: March 11, 2014, 04:12:48 PM »
That's legit. I guess it seemed a little like they were still able to ignore your claim. Maybe it might help if the trigger was a little more "make a claim you're prepared to back up"? I was mulling it over and thinking to myself, what if it's not triggered until the player implies repercussions? This might be in the wording of the move, or just made clear in the book and applied at the table. So, like:

Player: "I ask him to swear fealty."
MC: "he's all, 'sorry kid.'
Player: "I pull out my sword and demand it."
MC: "ahhh, you're Claiming Your Rights? Roll away..."

Maybe I was jumping the gun on the trigger? Maybe it doesn't happen unless the character is serious serious.

22
AW:Dark Age / Re: I miss Going Aggro and Manipulate
« on: March 11, 2014, 03:23:10 PM »
Something else is totally cool, just expressing my feeeeeeelings.

There may be playbook-specific options, but I'm thinking it's a pretty universal idea. I feel like there's a step between threat and action, a hesitency that's missing. Especially with that +1 from Claim Your Right, and the target's ability to shake you off even on a 10+. It doesn't always go into violence, there's some kind of social pressure in there that comes up.

(I was envisioning the Outlaw Heir, but then just wrote Player because I think the Heir has some fictional weight to pull in this situation that other playbooks may not, and wanted an agnostic view)

23
AW:Dark Age / I miss Going Aggro and Manipulate
« on: March 11, 2014, 02:46:44 PM »
I really like the new Basic Moves, especially Draw Someone Out. But I'm missing that step in between violence and demand; where a player shows that they're serious but gives them a chance to acquiesce. I miss Aggro or Manipulate. Check this out:

Player: "I yell at him: 'you swore fealty to my father! You will not deny me now! Join my cause and maintain your honor."
MC: Are you Claiming Your Right? Sounds like it. Roll Hard."
Player: "Sure, it's an... 11! Bite it! I stare him down, fiery."
MC: "The wayward lord stares right back: 'Times have changed. Lords have changed. I owe nothing to you.' He's calling you out, but you get a +1forward.
Player: "Damnit. I draw steel and hold out my blade, like 'Bend your knee or I'll bend it for you.'
MC: "Are you willing to kill over this?"
Player: "Uhhh, I don't know. Maybe, but I don't want to. I want him to know I'm serious, but I want him alive to lead his men."

...so is there a Move that comes next? I would've previously used Aggro or Manipulate, depending on how far the player is willing to take it. They deserve a roll because they've got that +1forward. What happens next?


24
AW:Dark Age / Re: Proposition with Dragon Herald
« on: March 11, 2014, 01:16:37 PM »
I quite like the Dragon Herald, especially once I read the MC section about how the Dragon cannot harm her. She's, like, the only chance humanity has at dealing with this ferocious force of nature. That's her bargaining chip and it's her seat of power. Wars are the affairs of men; the Dragon could end it all.

25
AW:Dark Age / Re: Proposition with Dragon Herald
« on: March 11, 2014, 12:07:25 AM »
When the dragons of the earth give your player 2 armor, that's a great time to ask them what that means. Maybe they're like, "oh, the earth moves to protect me, like walls of stone" or maybe they're like "oh, I'm just lucky, I guess." Then you know what they think is cool and what they're after.

26
AW:Dark Age / Re: New names for old stats
« on: March 09, 2014, 03:14:02 PM »
I'm a fan of the original stat names, myself. They're, like, descriptions of the character as perceived instead of quantifiable measurements. I like your replacement names, though, they're better than a lot that I've seen.

27
Apocalypse World / Re: How to run a good fire-fight
« on: March 09, 2014, 02:05:48 PM »
The book doesn't make it clear, but Vincent has said that when he runs battles (or other tense situations), he goes around the table asking for actions and then has everyone roll and resolve simultaneously. My group doesn't often get in fights together, and when they do I often ignore this advice out of habit. When it comes to announcing simultaneously...

Pros: everything is maybe more visceral, reactions are based on instinct and motive, it preserves the unpredictability of combat

Cons: players can't react to a success or failure until next "round," it could make a player feel like they're "giving up an action" if they Aid, it could lead to weird timing questions (though both methods run into this)

It's all preference, I think.

28
Apocalypse World / Re: Dying of Thirst
« on: March 04, 2014, 10:50:18 AM »
Those seem solid, but I prefer a much more handwavey apocalypse at my table. Like, "oh shit, you haven't had water in like days, right? You're all woozy and it's acting under fire if you're gonna run for it."

29
Apocalypse World / Re: How to run a good fire-fight
« on: March 04, 2014, 07:35:31 AM »
Yeah, make the firefight about the game fiction, with movement and goals and sudden changes. Remember that there's no "to hit" roll. A player can accomplish much more than "I shoot" on their turn. If you read the rulebook, one of the play examples has a player Seizing a bunker with a single roll. Not trading shot by shot with each enemy, but making one Seize by Force that encapsulates several minutes of battle by asking "what do you want? Oh, you want the bunker? Well, roll +Hard..."

As players, they can demand bigger rewards by setting the stakes higher than a single gunshot. Try pushing for a slightly bigger scale, like "okay, you're shooting and ducking, what's the ultimate goal here? You want him to back off the car, it seems like?" Or "...so you're trying to get him out of cover?"

If you just go through the battle trading blows, the system isn't the most exciting. Make Harm less mechanical and more scary. Make them realize that they are fighting for a reason, not just because. Have the battlefield shift and move and make their rolls consequential in ways that Harm is not, like cutting off escape routes or destroying nice things.

That's what I try to do when my players get into a fight. To me, it's not a great tactical blow-by-blow system. It's great for cinematic fights, so that's what I go with: lots of jump-cuts and zooming in and out.

30
The violence thing can be interesting in its own right, too. Like, maybe the combat isn't exciting for you (and me!), but the reasons and consequences can be. When my group got in the habit of shooting their way through everything, I was like "wow, so here's some people who are willing to just KILL this dude for causing trouble. Crazy!"

I expressed this both in-game and out. To the players, between sessions, I would discuss the violent solutions without being judgmental, just going "I think this is an interesting thing, do you?" And one player told me that the world was so threatening and everything so scarce that he felt like murderer was often the fastest and most permanent solution. Then we talked about how this is the exact thinking that makes the world so threatening. It was cool!

Within the fiction, make sure NPCs respond to this stuff. So the PCs immediately kill their problems. Who might this frighten? Who is nervous about teaming up with them? Who thinks they are awesome badasses and would make great allies? Who might ally with them out of fear and double-cross them when the time comes? These are all cool questions to find out.

(I feel like we long ago answered the OP question, but this discussion is interesting to me)

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