Barf Forth Apocalyptica
barf forth apocalyptica => Apocalypse World => Topic started by: caitlynn on September 07, 2010, 01:20:31 PM
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You'd throw them, right? So wouldn't it be close range? And then, like, you duck down or run? Most people could toss the sucker far enough.
I know it's got the area tag, but (hand area) isn't the same as (close area) - one affects an area at arm's length, the other affects an area within a shouted conversation's distance.
Or am I reading the (hand) tag wrong?
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Yeah... Seems like it should be close.
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Maybe I should have included a "thrown" range.
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My experience with weapons like shotguns and grenades is solely limited to video games, but at least based on that, I'd put them at similar effective ranges.
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I read "hand" as "within about 20 yards". Close enough to charge and swipe, or toss a grenade and get to cover, but not to blow across a good hundred or so yards (pistol/shotgun range) and avoid getting shot.
Video games are absurdly poor examples of the behavior of real weapons. Grenades can be thrown to about 30 yards max, while a shotgun with a good stock and decent barrel can have an effective range out to about 100 yards (the same as a pistol, or actually a bit longer). The shotgun in video games has a truly stupid spread because it's "interesting" or what people "expect"; in reality, buckshot doesn't spread much beyond about two feet in diameter (a bit bigger than a dinner plate, say), even from a sawed-off. The real limiter in range is how well you can aim the thing; with no stock or front sight you're not hitting much beyond spitting distance.
Also, hi. :)
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I read "hand" as "within about 20 yards".
Which is kind of a weird read of it considering it says, "within arm's reach" for the hand tag in the text.
When I think of hand, I think of melee weapons that are used in very close quarters. Sure you may be able to charge over and use it once you get within arm's reach, but you still need to do that, and if you can't, "within about 20 yards" is meaningless.
However, a grenade can be thrown whether you can move close enough or not (in fact, you probably DON'T want to move close enough... it has an area damage effect).
Grenades definitely seem to fall in the "close" category, not hand. If they are "pretty close" or within "shouting distance" seems about right.
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There you go, quoting the rules to explain how things work according to the rules.
Kidding. Truthfully, it makes more sense therefore to call it close than hand. Or do like Vx said and consider a "thrown" range. I mean, clearly a pistol has longer range than a thrown knife, but a thrown knife and thrown grenade should travel about as far, and that should be farther than you can swing a knife in your hand.
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Yeah, this one activated all of my latent "rules should model reality" urges, and I had to smack them down and tell them to shut up, that was important was their use in the story and so forth. As an MC, I'm not gonna stop a character from throwing a grenade because of the tag in the line (breaking the rules! oh noes!) but I won't complain if an MC is like "you have to get closer in, where he can attack you too, if you want to use that".
Two quick asides: 1) grenades (the typical fragmentation kind, anyway) are way heavier than you think they are, and a 100 yard throw would be pretty freaking amazing, good on you if you can do that, I throw like a girl that can't throw well, 2) their effective range/deadliness is also more than the most movies would have you believe. If you tossed one casually into the other room and hid behind an interior wall, you're probably in a bad way.
But again, that stuff is not important unless you think it's cool
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Yeah, we could get into the discussion of the difference between offensive/defensive grenades (the Russian/French F1 is a truly scary beast -- 30-meter casualty radius!), or perhaps the use of concussion versus frag grenades for interior combat.
But if we don't care about caliber, why should we care about that either? Grenades are thrown, go boom, and hurt lots. Good enough for me.
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But if we don't care about caliber, why should we care about that either? Grenades are thrown, go boom, and hurt lots. Good enough for me.
Indeed.
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But if we don't care about caliber, why should we care about that either? Grenades are thrown, go boom, and hurt lots. Good enough for me.
Indeed.
Excellent point! I couldn't help myself :)
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Interestingly, every use of grenades in both AW and in the RL that I've seen has been pretty much at "hand" range.
Sure, you can throw grenades around like Halo or something. But that's generally not how they're used. Mostly it's "I have a small enclosed environment filled with people I want to make less alive. I should use a grenade", not "there's a dude running through a field. Let's throw grenades at him long range and hope he stays still or that I'm actually a major league baseball player".
The example of grenades in the moves snowball chapter is exactly how they're used: throw one in a door before you go in. So having them at close or long range doesn't make sense to how I see it OR how they are usually fictionally depicted, which is more important here.
Then again, I've only had experience in controlled situations where collateral damage is a negative. Not exactly a description of AW. Maybe people really are throwing grenades around willy effing nilly.
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Interestingly, every use of grenades in both AW and in the RL that I've seen has been pretty much at "hand" range.
Within arm's reach? :) Nah. They are thrown, even into a room you are standing outside of. That's "close" with the key thing being that close is not a specific distance, only "pretty close to the target". Inside another room seems to be pretty close and definitely not within arm's reach. I think "thrown" is more accurate, but close works just as well. When I think of close I think of like just outside of arm's reach up to shouting distance.
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Interestingly, every use of grenades in both AW and in the RL that I've seen has been pretty much at "hand" range.
Within arm's reach?
Within arm's reach is more accurate than shouting distance. But whatever. Stupid argument.
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I'd like to see some guidelines for IED's, carbombs, and stickybombs. In a world of walled compounds and armored trucks, the bombmaker is going to be in high demand.
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Little off subjects (Except that it's combat) but I would dearly love to see a play example of the advanced combat moves in use.
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I'd like to see some guidelines for IED's, carbombs, and stickybombs. In a world of walled compounds and armored trucks, the bombmaker is going to be in high demand.
This seems like the savvyhead's area...
"Hey MC I want to make a carbomb that will do like 6 harm area messy"
"Hmm... well you need some special ingredients, and a car, and you might have to try a few times to get the detonator working right..."
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Within arm's reach is more accurate than shouting distance. But whatever. Stupid argument.
When I think of close I think of like just outside of arm's reach up to shouting distance.
Let me reiterate.
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I'd like to see some guidelines for IED's, carbombs, and stickybombs. In a world of walled compounds and armored trucks, the bombmaker is going to be in high demand.
This seems like the savvyhead's area...
"Hey MC I want to make a carbomb that will do like 6 harm area messy"
"Hmm... well you need some special ingredients, and a car, and you might have to try a few times to get the detonator working right..."
That sounds great. Savvyhead FTW.
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Messy assumes area, though, doesn't it? It may or may not hit anyone in the area? If you already have area, messy is a downgrade.
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Messy assumes area, though, doesn't it? It may or may not hit anyone in the area? If you already have area, messy is a downgrade.
I think messy is just one of those tags the MC has to use for descriptions. If it's messy, it's going to leave a big mess of blood, guts and brain matter.
Like, a pain-wave projector isn't messy, but it's area.
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Messy assumes area, though, doesn't it? It may or may not hit anyone in the area? If you already have area, messy is a downgrade.
I think messy is just one of those tags the MC has to use for descriptions. If it's messy, it's going to leave a big mess of blood, guts and brain matter.
Like, a pain-wave projector isn't messy, but it's area.
No, area means that it hits everyone in an area. Messy includes loud and also means that the MC picks and chooses who is hit or not.
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Messy assumes area, though, doesn't it? It may or may not hit anyone in the area? If you already have area, messy is a downgrade.
I think messy is just one of those tags the MC has to use for descriptions. If it's messy, it's going to leave a big mess of blood, guts and brain matter.
Like, a pain-wave projector isn't messy, but it's area.
No, area means that it hits everyone in an area. Messy includes loud and also means that the MC picks and chooses who is hit or not.
Messy can include loud. It's a "cue" which means it's a trigger for the MC to add descriptive elements. And, it might miss a given person in its area.
Messy (cue): it’s loud (cf ). Furthermore, it might hit every person in its area but might miss any given person in its area; and it leaves a mess behind — cosmetic property damage, blood and gore, barf or shit or other bodily produce, or some other kind of mess as appropriate.
(pg 238) ...third, cues recommending something for you to say about them.
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Yeah, it's loud.
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Yeah, it's loud.
Sure, it can be. Cues are recommendations for the MC to say something descriptive about them. If the MC deems a particular messy weapon potentially loud, she should describe it as such. If the MC deems a particular messy weapon to leave a mess of gore behind, she should describe it as such.
It's a distinct difference from area, which is a mechanical tag.
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No, it just gets Loud, which is a also a cue. No one's arguing here. We're now just in one of your ridiculous semantics arguments. I get how messy works.
No, area means that it hits everyone in an area. Messy includes loud and also means that the MC picks and chooses who is hit or not.
The above is entirely correct.
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No, it just gets Loud, which is a also a cue. No one's arguing here. We're now just in one of your ridiculous semantics arguments. I get how messy works.
You're the one arguing semantics.
No, area means that it hits everyone in an area. Messy includes loud and also means that the MC picks and chooses who is hit or not.
The above is entirely correct.
Which was a direct response to:
I think messy is just one of those tags the MC has to use for descriptions. If it's messy, it's going to leave a big mess of blood, guts and brain matter.
Like, a pain-wave projector isn't messy, but it's area.
Which is correct.
It's a cue, distinct from mechanical. Two different types of tags. That's not semantics. That's just fact.
Just like "loud" and "intimate" are two different types of tags.
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Which was a direct response to:
I think messy is just one of those tags the MC has to use for descriptions. If it's messy, it's going to leave a big mess of blood, guts and brain matter.
Like, a pain-wave projector isn't messy, but it's area.
Which is correct.
No, it's not. Messy kills almost everyone there, but the GM can leave someone(s) alive. In addition, it's loud. It's not just for descriptions, which is what you said.
Then you responded with:
Messy can include loud. It's a "cue" which means it's a trigger for the MC to add descriptive elements. And, it might miss a given person in its area.
..which is obvious and built into the past statement, since "it's loud" refers you to the entry for loud, which says it's a cue.
Great talk.
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No, it's not. Messy kills almost everyone there, but the GM can leave someone(s) alive. In addition, it's loud. It's not just for descriptions, which is what you said.
Cues are recommendations.
• sawed-off (3-harm close reload messy)
This seems like a good "messy" weapon to potentially hit targets in the area that you may not have intended to. Same for grenades and shit. It's also going to destroy some property likely and fuck some bodies up. The loud blast is likely to wake up a whole block.
• crowbar (2-harm hand messy)
Taking a crowbar to someone's face isn't likely to destroy much property or even hit many other people. But, it's certainly going to leave plenty of blood and gore around and might make someone shit their pants. The metal on flesh packing sound might make some peeps wake up nearby too.
Great talk.
Great talk indeed. Clearly there's some confusion about the messy tag.
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Video games are absurdly poor examples of the behavior of real weapons.
I wouldn't dream of arguing with that. I might say, however, that I'd rather look to video games for cues for AW than real life, but YMMV. I'm sure everyone has their own preferred level of realism for the game.
Grenades can be thrown to about 30 yards max, while a shotgun [ . . . ] The real limiter in range is how well you can aim the thing; with no stock or front sight you're not hitting much beyond spitting distance.
So... pretty similar effective range, then? ;)
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Eh. Depends on the shotgun. Sawed-offs are good to about ten yards, good full-size models up to 100.
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Messy assumes area, though, doesn't it? It may or may not hit anyone in the area? If you already have area, messy is a downgrade.
I think messy is just one of those tags the MC has to use for descriptions. If it's messy, it's going to leave a big mess of blood, guts and brain matter.
Like, a pain-wave projector isn't messy, but it's area.
I disagree, if the explosive can be a "shaped charge" then it wouldn't be messy and more effective.
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GENERAL CHARACTERISTICS OF
HAND GRENADES
The RANGE of hand grenades, in relation to other weapons, is very short. This range depends entirely on the throwing ability of each individual. You should be able to throw a grenade, such as the M67 fragmentation grenade, about 35 to 40 meters.
The EFFECTIVE CASUALTY RADIUS of a hand grenade is defined as the radius of a circular area around the point of detonation within which at least 50 percent of the exposed personnel become casualties. The radius is about 16.5 yards (15 meters). This radius is small compared to the effective casualty radius of the other weapons, such as the 60-mm mortar. You must remember, however, that casualties can and do occur at distances much greater than the so-called effective casualty radius.
so remember the hand grenade is thrown by hand; therefore, the range is short and the casualty radius is small. Hand grenades are used to supplement small arms against an enemy in close combat, as a riot control agent, for smoke screening and signaling, and for incendiary purposes, hence the reason that it is used as a DEFENSIVE weapon and not as a offensive weapon normally.