Why are grenades at hand range?

You'd throw them, right? So wouldn't it be close range? And then, like, you duck down or run? Most people could toss the sucker far enough.

I know it's got the area tag, but (hand area) isn't the same as (close area) - one affects an area at arm's length, the other affects an area within a shouted conversation's distance.

Or am I reading the (hand) tag wrong?

Yeah... Seems like it should be close.

Maybe I should have included a "thrown" range.

My experience with weapons like shotguns and grenades is solely limited to video games, but at least based on that, I'd put them at similar effective ranges.

I read "hand" as "within about 20 yards".  Close enough to charge and swipe, or toss a grenade and get to cover, but not to blow across a good hundred or so yards (pistol/shotgun range) and avoid getting shot.

Video games are absurdly poor examples of the behavior of real weapons.  Grenades can be thrown to about 30 yards max, while a shotgun with a good stock and decent barrel can have an effective range out to about 100 yards (the same as a pistol, or actually a bit longer).  The shotgun in video games has a truly stupid spread because it's "interesting" or what people "expect"; in reality, buckshot doesn't spread much beyond about two feet in diameter (a bit bigger than a dinner plate, say), even from a sawed-off.  The real limiter in range is how well you can aim the thing; with no stock or front sight you're not hitting much beyond spitting distance.

Also, hi.  :)

I read "hand" as "within about 20 yards".

Which is kind of a weird read of it considering it says, "within arm's reach" for the hand tag in the text.

When I think of hand, I think of melee weapons that are used in very close quarters. Sure you may be able to charge over and use it once you get within arm's reach, but you still need to do that, and if you can't, "within about 20 yards" is meaningless.

However, a grenade can be thrown whether you can move close enough or not (in fact, you probably DON'T want to move close enough... it has an area damage effect).

Grenades definitely seem to fall in the "close" category, not hand. If they are "pretty close" or within "shouting distance" seems about right.

There you go, quoting the rules to explain how things work according to the rules.

Kidding.  Truthfully, it makes more sense therefore to call it close than hand.  Or do like Vx said and consider a "thrown" range.  I mean, clearly a pistol has longer range than a thrown knife, but a thrown knife and thrown grenade should travel about as far, and that should be farther than you can swing a knife in your hand.

Yeah, this one activated all of my latent "rules should model reality" urges, and I had to smack them down and tell them to shut up, that was important was their use in the story and so forth. As an MC, I'm not gonna stop a character from throwing a grenade because of the tag in the line (breaking the rules! oh noes!) but I won't complain if an MC is like "you have to get closer in, where he can attack you too, if you want to use that".

Two quick asides: 1) grenades (the typical fragmentation kind, anyway) are way heavier than you think they are, and a 100 yard throw would be pretty freaking amazing, good on you if you can do that, I throw like a girl that can't throw well, 2) their effective range/deadliness is also more than the most movies would have you believe. If you tossed one casually into the other room and hid behind an interior wall, you're probably in a bad way.

But again, that stuff is not important unless you think it's cool

Yeah, we could get into the discussion of the difference between offensive/defensive grenades (the Russian/French F1 is a truly scary beast -- 30-meter casualty radius!), or perhaps the use of concussion versus frag grenades for interior combat.

But if we don't care about caliber, why should we care about that either?  Grenades are thrown, go boom, and hurt lots.  Good enough for me.

But if we don't care about caliber, why should we care about that either?  Grenades are thrown, go boom, and hurt lots.  Good enough for me.

Indeed.

Quote from: Jim D. on September 08, 2010, 12:03:04 PM

But if we don't care about caliber, why should we care about that either?  Grenades are thrown, go boom, and hurt lots.  Good enough for me.

Indeed.

Excellent point! I couldn't help myself :)

Interestingly, every use of grenades in both AW and in the RL that I've seen has been pretty much at "hand" range.

Sure, you can throw grenades around like Halo or something. But that's generally not how they're used. Mostly it's "I have a small enclosed environment filled with people I want to make less alive. I should use a grenade", not "there's a dude running through a field. Let's throw grenades at him long range and hope he stays still or that I'm actually a major league baseball player".

The example of grenades in the moves snowball chapter is exactly how they're used: throw one in a door before you go in. So having them at close or long range doesn't make sense to how I see it OR how they are usually fictionally depicted, which is more important here.

Then again, I've only had experience in controlled situations where collateral damage is a negative. Not exactly a description of AW. Maybe people really are throwing grenades around willy effing nilly.

Interestingly, every use of grenades in both AW and in the RL that I've seen has been pretty much at "hand" range.

Within arm's reach? :) Nah. They are thrown, even into a room you are standing outside of. That's "close" with the key thing being that close is not a specific distance, only "pretty close to the target". Inside another room seems to be pretty close and definitely not within arm's reach. I think "thrown" is more accurate, but close works just as well. When I think of close I think of like just outside of arm's reach up to shouting distance.

Quote from: Chris on September 08, 2010, 12:18:29 PM

Interestingly, every use of grenades in both AW and in the RL that I've seen has been pretty much at "hand" range.

Within arm's reach?

Within arm's reach is more accurate than shouting distance. But whatever. Stupid argument.

I'd like to see some guidelines for IED's, carbombs, and stickybombs.  In a world of walled compounds and armored trucks, the bombmaker is going to be in high demand.