Questions: Optional experience, retire to safety.

I have a few questions, and not much luck searching 'em out, so:

* Are characters required to take experience?  Can they refuse it?  More specifically, are they required to take advances?  There is one player whose character is maxed out, and she doesn't want to take any of the remaining options.  One of the players says this might be contary to the anti-status quo nature of the game.

We are currently going with advancing being optional -- you can take experience (useful for some prestige-type advances where experience still gives you things), but you don't have to take advances. 

* If a hardholder type retires to safety in such a way that she remains in the game, is her holding also relatively safe too, or is that too status quoey?  Or does "retire" mean retire as well -- not a holder anymore, but personally safe?

We are currently going with the holding, which is not the main holding in the game, being relatively tall-walled and isolated, and the hocus who ruled it still rules it.  But I am not sure what to do if the holder of the main holding retires.

I think that's it.  Thanks!

I take retire to mean they left the stressful aspects of their life behind. Running a holding and having people bring their problems to you 24/7 hardly seems relaxing, or safe for that matter. I could see maybe them staying in the holding after passing the responsibility of it all to a trusted NPC that would let them live the life of luxe they are used to.

Allowing an entire holding to remain in safety does feel a bit "status quoey" but if it can work into the fiction, ie the hardhold is self sustained for major resources and is reasonably well guarded, I think it's ok. The players worked hard to earn enough improvements to retire to safety, and the book explicitly says not to fuck around with that.

It seems to me that if all the major holdings with which the PCs are (or have been) associated are becoming stable, then it's time to either end the campaign or relocate to some other more contentious part of the Apocalypse.

I think it's totally legit for a Hardholder to retire to safety in a way that suggests the holding itself is also relatively safe -- provided they've earned that in the fiction as well. But I would be much less inclined to continue to use said 'hold as setting for the activities of other PCs, because at some point your obligation to the safely-retired is going to start interfering with the 'no status quos' and 'make their lives interesting' principles.

"You don't have to advance if you don't want to" isn't by-the-book play. Technically speaking, it's a custom move on your home front, and it's a perfectly legit one. If you like the effect it's having on your game, by all means keep it.

When you retire to safety, if there's any question, handle it the same way you'd handle changing playbooks: work out with your MC what's an essential part of you, and what's just part of the circumstances of your old life. Retire the former to safety with you and leave the latter behind to fend for itself.

-Vincent

That's interesting, I guess I assumed it was standard and have been playing that way. It's actually led to some minor issues with one of my players who seems wary of having his Maestro'd change in a meaningful way. He's picked up every advance except change playbooks or retire, and the Maesto'd just sort of - hangs? He doesn't have a lot of things he chases after anymore. He's relatively comfortable compared to other PCs, and I feel a bit like the character has retired to safety and the player doesn't know it yet. He is also fairly immune to being enticed by offers of experience.

I suppose it's partly my fault, but the guy is pretty much satisfied as long as his establishment is secure, and I've been over threatening the establishment a million ways.

So I guess consider the fact that you could possibly have some PCs sort of stall out if you play this way, as I have. If I knew what I were doing ahead of time, I probably would have done something to head off the issue.

Thank you for the answers.  This has been very helpful.

The default of being required to mark experience and take advances seems like it'd create some interesting play near the end for people who don't want to advance -- instead of using marked stats to get experience, they use non-marked stats to avoid it. 

Possibly so!

As it happens, this dynamic is going to underlie the Space Marine Mammal from the beginning, not just toward the end. For the Space Marine Mammal, the question is going to be when and whether you'll start pursuing experience and advancement, not what to do when you're running out of options.

-Vincent

The default of being required to mark experience and take advances seems like it'd create some interesting play near the end for people who don't want to advance -- instead of using marked stats to get experience, they use non-marked stats to avoid it. 

I thought the same thing and asked my MC to clarify this. She has her own house rules for the second series of improvements.

We play fast and loose with improvements. You can mark an improvement later on, if you're in the middle of a fight or a charged interaction you might not want to stop to consider whether to raise your weird or your hot, and marking an improvement follows the fiction.
One player has marked the "create a second character" improvement but hasn't made that second character because he just hasn't felt like investing into another character yet.

For something like retiring we interpret it as "the character is able to retire and may do so to safety now, whenever the player declares." But subverting the rules and making them your own is also in the spirit of the game (see the Advanced Fuckery chapter) and so our MC also gives us the option to retire our characters as a threat.

How do you do this, Vincent? Do you always have the player choose the improvement right then and there?

Because I see a few weird cases:

1. We're in the middle of something, and we want to keep going, figure out the best improvement option later. Let's not stall the game!

2. We like to have improvements come organically out of what's going on (like in The Shadow of Yesterday, where this experience seems to me to be derived from), creating interesting situations and revelations in play.

(I like doing that kind of thing, like when I pulled off a cool trick in this game: http://apocalypse-world.com/forums/index.php?topic=1931.msg12482#msg12482)

3. There's an improvement we're thinking about, but the fiction isn't ready for it yet (e.g. gaining a gang), so it doesn't feel like we're quite ready to go there. For instance, a character is about to go meet a bunch of savage biker nomads to negotiate with them, and hopes to sway them to follow her. She gets an improvement and we all go, "Cool! Maybe they'll become your gang!" And the player agrees, but she says, "Well, let me meet them first, and let's play to see what happens."

What do you recommend?



(I find it interesting that Monsterhearts makes this explicit: you cannot gain any more experience until you've chosen an improvement.)

Remember that it's prescriptive as well as descriptive. If you get a gang from an improvement, adjust the fiction to say that you have a gang. This will involve the MC asking questions, like with everything. And you'll find out what happens there.

If you're going out to treat with some savage biker nomads, "maybe they'll become your gang," is a thing regardless of you having an advance available, right? Because maybe you do butter them up and they agree to follow you for the rewards you promise, or you kill their leader and become the new one. You don't need an advance for that, yeah? Not saying you're doing this, but you need to be careful that you don't actually end up plotting ahead that they will win over the savage biker nomads.

That's exactly what I'm saying: if you spend the advance RIGHT NOW, you're not leaving it up to play to find out, you're plotting ahead. Holding on to it for an appropriate moment later in play seems more organic to me.

I do it however seems best, case by case. All of those are legit. There's no reason to rule any of them out before the fact.

One way to resolve "can I win the savage biker nomads over?" is to spend an advance to get a gang. Resolved: yes I can, and yes I do. Choosing to elide the action isn't the same as plotting ahead.

Saying "I don't know whether I want these guys as a gang, let's see how we hit it off, maybe I'll take my advance after" is perfectly fine too.

As MC, I'm utterly unbothered by either.

-Vincent

Thanks! (And that's how I do it, too. It just seems like the most sensible way to me.)

There's one other option that I didn't see anyone mention.

Create new advancement options, like house-ruled special moves and stuff. If the game goes on as long as to have "but I don't want to be forced to retire my character", you can probably get away with some stuff that wouldn't make much sense at the start of a game.

"Hey Hardholder, would you like a dragon?"

And other such things

"Hey Hardholder, would you like a dragon?"

New character type: Hoarder ;)