Seizing A Life By Force

Vincent, can't you attempt to seize by force using your fists?

I mean, I figured going aggro in the middle of a fight was an option, if it seems like it works, but... it seems like there are other options here, too.  I mean, pointing a shotgun at someone and going aggro with it is still a bad idea if you don't want to kill them because they can always choose to "suck it up."

Yes, you can seize by force using your fists! Of course you can.

Or the butt of your shotgun. Finding a weapon that does s-harm is a really good solution.

Definitely. I don't think the game gains anything by saying "I wanna take him hostage. I shoot him in the leg". "Well, fuck you. Billy, you hit an artery and this dude bleeds out in seconds."

Except maybe the idea that if you shoot someone they might die.

And if you hit them with a 0 harm weapon they might suck it up and then do something unkind back.

Cause taking hostages is cool and all, but sometimes you have to make a choice between doing something that might kill someone you don't want to kill and something that might get you killed by them after you punch Mammoth in the face.

I mean, this is obviously not right for all games. But I've got a group that is always trying to get out of making hard choices with "I don't actually want to kill him when I shoot him at point blank range with a 5 harm shotgun, I just want to graze him a little." And when I let them do it, it lames the game.

So when we play, I have a rule "If you're doing big harm, I'm going to kill bitches. If you aren't, you might get what you want -- or they might decide to do big harm to you while you're waiting."

If I remember correctly, though, in skinnyghost's example, the dude in the shed was fighting back. Both characters were in the doorway, and the NPC came at him with a knife or something. So even though he has a shotgun, he can't Go Aggro with it, unless he gets some range on the guy. Yes?

Yes. You can't go aggro on a person who is already fighting effectively with you. You need to somehow get that moment on them, where you can put your shotgun in their face without pulling the trigger. It might mean getting range, it might mean disarming them, it might mean sucking up a knife to the gut.

Except maybe the idea that if you shoot someone they might die.

Sure. Make your character's lives interesting. Come down on either side of the harm levels to make sure that happens.

But I've got a group that is always trying to get out of making hard choices with "I don't actually want to kill him when I shoot him at point blank range with a 5 harm shotgun, I just want to graze him a little." And when I let them do it, it lames the game.

I don't think it lames the game to not always make a hard move. See where they're going with this. The dude is bleeding out; you can always kill him. It's harder to bring him back.

The decisions that come with a dying NPC are more interesting than "Yeah, you wanted him alive, but he's dead. What are you doing now?"

"Well, that was all I had planned. I guess I go home."

So when we play, I have a rule "If you're doing big harm, I'm going to kill bitches."

Sure. But it's not keeping AW real. If I shoot a guy in the foot with a shotgun and he just instantly dies, I'm calling bullshit. If a dude missing his whole lower arm has the temerity to bleed all over my team's Humvee for an hour in real life, then this dude with a missing foot better not bleed out instantly or the rest of this game is gonna be about me going to hell to slap the shit out of him.  If you wanna make me act under fire because shit's gone nuts and I might not be able to just hit his foot, that's fine. But instagibbing NPCs is not interesting or real.

Yes. You can't go aggro on a person who is already fighting effectively with you. You need to somehow get that moment on them, where you can put your shotgun in their face without pulling the trigger. It might mean getting range, it might mean disarming them, it might mean sucking up a knife to the gut.

Yeah, it's that beat in the movies where the dudes pause for a second instead of instantly going for murder. Not just "He's attacking you. What do you do?". The example was two guys. Where's the simpleminded posturing? :)

If you wanna make me act under fire because shit's gone nuts and I might not be able to just hit his foot, that's fine. But instagibbing NPCs is not interesting or real.

Yeah, true enough, but I still say that the best answer to "How do I avoid killing dudes when I shoot them with my shotgun?" is "Don't shoot dude you don't want to kill with your shotgun."

Let's say I have a shotgun.  Let's say some random NPC doesn't.  He has no armor, either.  I chase him into a shed, wanting to take him hostage.  Guns are out, there've been some shots fired, we're definitely out of Go Aggro territory and into Seize by Force territory.

Say I want to Seize this sucker.  I don't want to kill him, though.  What's the deal?  I mean, there's no "deal little harm" option.  I can take the "Take definite hold" option and the "Frighten or Dismay or Whatever" option but he's still taken 3 harm, BLAM!, and is pretty much toast.

How, in the midst of a battle, can I get my hands on this slippery little jerk?

Great discussion and I love how may different views there are of this. Must be a lot of subtly different MC styles out there.

Apocalypse world lets you do just about anything you'd conceivably do in this situation "Make apocalypse world seem real"

1) Threaten him... come with me quietly or I'll blow your head off! Could be going aggro, you have a moment alone in the shed as opposed to out in open battle, or could be manipulating with the leverage being violence (in which case you don't have to pull the trigger) Just here the victim has the choice in the matter.
2) Literally go up and grab him violently. I think this is Seizing by Force with your hands. You hit and take the definite hold option with additional harm if you want to rough him up some, he may hit you back but you've already got him unarmed as you said so worst thing he's going to lay a hand on you. Victim has no choice in this one, you're taking him.
3) Beat the crap out of him and take what's left. This would be again Seizing by force (or going aggro if the MC rules he's not defending himself) and just injure him to the point of non-resistance. Could do this with your hands or gun stock, but I'd allow a non-immediately-lethal shotgun injury, say to the hand or foot or whatever (Anyone see the first few minutes of robocop?) But if you blow that roll you're probably gonna kill him. (MC Move : Trade harm)
4) Hell, no move necessary here. You have a shotgun, guy's in a shed with no armor and no weapon to speak of... fuck him he's grabbed and at your mercy, who's this NPC to me? Crosshairs baby.
5) Something else: Yeah there's a ton of good ways to resolve the situation, none of them are wrong I think, just what fits the flavor of your game and the situation. Just tell the MC what you DO and she'll figure out what that means mechanically, yes?

Sure. Make your character's lives interesting. Come down on either side of the harm levels to make sure that happens.

Yes, exactly. And sometimes that does mean killing the dude who got shotgunned, and sometimes it doesn't.

My issue is with the simple intent of an action overwhelming the complexity of an action. That is to say, when you shoot someone there is so much shit that can go wrong in a tense moment that just because a character intends to shoot someone in the toe and not kill them gives no guarantee that is actually what's going to happen. Sometimes you go to shoot someone in the toe and shoot them in the pelvis, sometimes bullets bounce, sometimes people get shot in the toe and die anyway. (Though as you point out this is rarely "insta kill" and more "dying in shock over the next hour" type death.)

I'm in no way saying "kill the dude every time!" What I am saying is "just because a PC says "I don't want to kill him when I shoot him with a shotgun at point blank range" doesn't mean I'm going to respect the "I don't want" part more than the "with a shotgun at point blank range" part.

Damn, why didn't I think of this before? New move:

Surgical Precision: When you seize by force or go aggro with a weapon and roll a 10+, you may choose how much harm your enemy takes, up to the maximum allowed by your weapon.

Surgical Precision: When you seize by force or go aggro with a weapon and roll a 10+, you may choose how much harm your enemy takes, up to the maximum allowed by your weapon.

Awesome idea!  But this isn't a basic move, is it?  Do you think it goes in a playbook, or what?

I could see Surgical Precision as a Battlebabe move. Which would make them even more ninja than they already are.

Quote from: skinnyghost on September 17, 2010, 03:16:47 PM

Let's say I have a shotgun.  Let's say some random NPC doesn't.  He has no armor, either.  I chase him into a shed, wanting to take him hostage.  Guns are out, there've been some shots fired, we're definitely out of Go Aggro territory and into Seize by Force territory.

Say I want to Seize this sucker.  I don't want to kill him, though.  What's the deal?  I mean, there's no "deal little harm" option.  I can take the "Take definite hold" option and the "Frighten or Dismay or Whatever" option but he's still taken 3 harm, BLAM!, and is pretty much toast.

How, in the midst of a battle, can I get my hands on this slippery little jerk?

Great discussion and I love how may different views there are of this. Must be a lot of subtly different MC styles out there.

Apocalypse world lets you do just about anything you'd conceivably do in this situation "Make apocalypse world seem real"

1) Threaten him... come with me quietly or I'll blow your head off! Could be going aggro, you have a moment alone in the shed as opposed to out in open battle, or could be manipulating with the leverage being violence (in which case you don't have to pull the trigger) Just here the victim has the choice in the matter.
2) Literally go up and grab him violently. I think this is Seizing by Force with your hands. You hit and take the definite hold option with additional harm if you want to rough him up some, he may hit you back but you've already got him unarmed as you said so worst thing he's going to lay a hand on you. Victim has no choice in this one, you're taking him.
3) Beat the crap out of him and take what's left. This would be again Seizing by force (or going aggro if the MC rules he's not defending himself) and just injure him to the point of non-resistance. Could do this with your hands or gun stock, but I'd allow a non-immediately-lethal shotgun injury, say to the hand or foot or whatever (Anyone see the first few minutes of robocop?) But if you blow that roll you're probably gonna kill him. (MC Move : Trade harm)
4) Hell, no move necessary here. You have a shotgun, guy's in a shed with no armor and no weapon to speak of... fuck him he's grabbed and at your mercy, who's this NPC to me? Crosshairs baby.
5) Something else: Yeah there's a ton of good ways to resolve the situation, none of them are wrong I think, just what fits the flavor of your game and the situation. Just tell the MC what you DO and she'll figure out what that means mechanically, yes?

6) Threaten him non-lethally: Just aim the shotgun at his knees and tell him to come peacefully, or you'll drag him back. If he sucks it up (refuses or resists) you blow his kneecaps out.

7) Put the gun away and sieze by force: Just because you seize by force doesn't mean you have to deal harm. Roll to grab him. He's probably going to punch you in the face when you're coming, so be prepared to pick "You suffer little harm", and make sure you take "You  take definitive hold of it" so he doesn't wring free in 10 minutes.

You know how on page 271, John Harper, Ben Wray, and Vincent are all making up new moves for their players to take as advancements? I'd use Surgical Precision that way. If you have a player whose character tends to make very precise assaults on others, even if they're not a Battlebabe or a Gunlugger, let them take Surgical Precision as either an extra move from their playbook, or an extra move from another playbook.