What class moves have you had trouble with?

I think this is easiest answered in order.

Bard

1. A Port in the Storm - nobody in my group(s) is 100% sure what the point of this is. I mostly use it as a cue to describe new places, and maybe toss in a few leads/hooks.  I note that every time this is asked I promptly address the character and ask him something in the vein of 'who did you leave behind here?', 'who is your biggest fan here?' or 'who would not be happy to see you come strutting back into town?'.  I don't know if that's intended, or if it's something I personally as a GM always feel should be appended to the move.

I know it's not a move but I figure it bears mention here as it applies to numerous bard moves:

2. Theme.  From the description the bard is an orator, historian, teller of tales.  However most of their abilities are focused around their magic Art, with no exact explanation.  I can see how a bard can be more of a non-mystic general, or inspiring comrade (pick +1d4 forward on Art, use the new and improved 'It goes to 11' to buff, take some paladin moves via multi-class like Setup Strike and CHARGE!), but where does bardic magic come from?  Alot of the abilities ('Metal Hurlant', 'It goes to 11' mentions of 'righteous lute solos') are somewhat tongue in cheek.  I know this is a D&D staple (they ended up just ruling bardic magic sorcery), but there are very few cues in your (probably intentionaly) vague fiction to even provide a framework or guidance for some answers.

Cleric

Clerics are awesome.  Minor point, since they are one of the classes that starts with no cash, it would be nice to see a few more gear options for non-chaimail+mace clerics (leather or robes for gods of Knowledge and Hidden things, or bows for Woodsmen worshiping What Lies Beneath). It mentions religion at the edge of a blade in the intro, but no such option is provided.

1. Divine Guidance still mentions multiple petitions (bug report!)

2. Commune - doesn't address if you can take multiples of the same spell. (like old school wizards)

3. Penitent/Martyr - with HP no longer scaling this ability becomes fairly deadly at higher levels (take 10 damage for a +1 forward to casting) especially considering that the move is triggered by taking damage in the first place.  Not really a question, just something to evaluate/re-evaluate and keep in mind.

4. Serenity - did you realize that Magic Weapon is the only "ongoing" cleric spell in the current spell list? It's a fantastic and useful spell.  I'm not sure the ability linked to it and it alone (Serenity) is relevant any further though.

Fighter

1.  It was mentioned here on the forums that the human racial was changing, I'd ask that you re-look at the elf one too (as fighters in general have +str moves, and Precise doesn't seem to favor them per se).  Aside from that, this is actually my favorite class.

It has style, it has power, it has flavor, even some flexibility.  No complaints/problems with any of the class moves.

Paladin

No questions. Also these guys are scary. The way you made them capable leaders too is great. Thumbsup.

Ranger

Animal Companion: How do you as a GM deal with the beast, it being hurt, and healing.  Clearly this is a very potent element of the ranger, and should not be taken away willy-nilly, but is a hard move disabling the beastie or simply wounding it (similar to the ferocity reduction of Man's Best Friend)?

1. I wish 'Dual Wield' would be renamed 'Hunter's Eye' or 'Go for the throat' (or the eyes BOO!). Simply because Drizzt has scarred most of us and the class-based damage-die functions regardless of 'number of wield'.  Also both abilities are named 'Dual Wield' although the higher level one references Dual Strike (bug report!)

Thief

1. Backstab - is it possible to backstab in combat? Defenseless might be unlikely but what are some examples of surprise?  I rule special case (an undead someone has turned, someone stunned by a mighty blow, you waiting in the shadows till a battle moves by) but I'm curious what the official word is.

2. Not a move per se but common thiefy question: Stealth - I assume this is just 'defy danger' via int (throw a rock!) or dex (tippy toes sneaky) when there's a chance of being spotted?

3. Some of the level arrangements seem odd.  There are 3 poison abilities in the 2-5 range and 1 in the 6-10 range.  So you can brew any poison you use, but they're always Dangerous unless you take a different advance.  Yet you can't plan a heist, as a thief, till level 6.  Or throw a knife for that matter. Especially since the halfling racial even requires ranged weapons. (edit: just read the weapons section - huzzah for 0 weight throwing knives).  It just seems odd.

Wizard

This class is another one of my favorites. I love how the abilities make them more arcane and creepily inhuman (speak of things nobody else knows, with a touch pluck memories, and deflect attacks better by just having magic).

1. Does the elf 'cleric' spell only count for availability, or is it added to your spellbook?

2. Prepare Spells - can you prepare the same spell more than once?

3. Spell Augumentation - there are precisely 0 marked Ongoing (which is a keyword for the cleric) spells for the wizard.  How is this mitigated a bit since some mention 'ongoing' in the spell description, but don't use the tag like the single cleric spell that has it.  Can we be clear on what constitutes 'ongoing'?

Level 1 - Mention: Invis. Suspect: Telepathy?
Level 3 - Mention: Mimic. Suspect: Mirror Image?
Level 5 - Mention: Cage, Summon Monster.  Suspect: Polymorph?
Level 7 - Mention: Dominate, True Seeing.  Suspect: Contingency
Level 9 - Mention: Antipathy. Suspect: Shelter?

Some of these have alternate end conditions, but some have alternate end conditions but still mention Ongoing (ex Cage).  So far I've ruled that if the spell mentions ongoing in self-reference it counts, but I'd like an official word.


Ok, that's my list! How about you guys?

This is a great list and I agree with it 100%.

I think this is easiest answered in order.

Bard

1. A Port in the Storm - nobody in my group(s) is 100% sure what the point of this is. I mostly use it as a cue to describe new places, and maybe toss in a few leads/hooks.  I note that every time this is asked I promptly address the character and ask him something in the vein of 'who did you leave behind here?', 'who is your biggest fan here?' or 'who would not be happy to see you come strutting back into town?'.  I don't know if that's intended, or if it's something I personally as a GM always feel should be appended to the move.

I know it's not a move but I figure it bears mention here as it applies to numerous bard moves:

2. Theme.  From the description the bard is an orator, historian, teller of tales.  However most of their abilities are focused around their magic Art, with no exact explanation.  I can see how a bard can be more of a non-mystic general, or inspiring comrade (pick +1d4 forward on Art, use the new and improved 'It goes to 11' to buff, take some paladin moves via multi-class like Setup Strike and CHARGE!), but where does bardic magic come from?  Alot of the abilities ('Metal Hurlant', 'It goes to 11' mentions of 'righteous lute solos') are somewhat tongue in cheek.  I know this is a D&D staple (they ended up just ruling bardic magic sorcery), but there are very few cues in your (probably intentionaly) vague fiction to even provide a framework or guidance for some answers.

Finally someone thinks like me! =)

I'm working on a variant bard class for my house game, to reflect more to what I think bard is, and it's the class that I made most of changes.

Fighter

1.  It was mentioned here on the forums that the human racial was changing, I'd ask that you re-look at the elf one too (as fighters in general have +str moves, and Precise doesn't seem to favor them per se).  Aside from that, this is actually my favorite class.

It has style, it has power, it has flavor, even some flexibility.  No complaints/problems with any of the class moves.
[\quote]

I really like fighters too, they are great. The only thing I miss in they is that they don't have a move for dual wield like rangers (I even don't see why rangers are good two-weapon warriors, besides Drizzt existence. I see rangers as bow, javelin or beast masters, not as two-weapon fighters).

Quote

Ranger

Animal Companion: How do you as a GM deal with the beast, it being hurt, and healing.  Clearly this is a very potent element of the ranger, and should not be taken away willy-nilly, but is a hard move disabling the beastie or simply wounding it (similar to the ferocity reduction of Man's Best Friend)?

1. I wish 'Dual Wield' would be renamed 'Hunter's Eye' or 'Go for the throat' (or the eyes BOO!). Simply because Drizzt has scarred most of us and the class-based damage-die functions regardless of 'number of wield'.  Also both abilities are named 'Dual Wield' although the higher level one references Dual Strike (bug report!)
[\quote]

I wish hunters had more advanced moves for bows (and see my comment about dual wielding in fighter's part).

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Thief

3. Some of the level arrangements seem odd.  There are 3 poison abilities in the 2-5 range and 1 in the 6-10 range.  So you can brew any poison you use, but they're always Dangerous unless you take a different advance.  Yet you can't plan a heist, as a thief, till level 6.  (...)  It just seems odd.

I have the same problems with poison moves too.

Quote

Wizard

This class is another one of my favorites. I love how the abilities make them more arcane and creepily inhuman (speak of things nobody else knows, with a touch pluck memories, and deflect attacks better by just having magic).

1. Does the elf 'cleric' spell only count for availability, or is it added to your spellbook?

2. Prepare Spells - can you prepare the same spell more than once?

3. Spell Augumentation - there are precisely 0 marked Ongoing (which is a keyword for the cleric) spells for the wizard.  How is this mitigated a bit since some mention 'ongoing' in the spell description, but don't use the tag like the single cleric spell that has it.  Can we be clear on what constitutes 'ongoing'?

Level 1 - Mention: Invis. Suspect: Telepathy?
Level 3 - Mention: Mimic. Suspect: Mirror Image?
Level 5 - Mention: Cage, Summon Monster.  Suspect: Polymorph?
Level 7 - Mention: Dominate, True Seeing.  Suspect: Contingency
Level 9 - Mention: Antipathy. Suspect: Shelter?

Some of these have alternate end conditions, but some have alternate end conditions but still mention Ongoing (ex Cage).  So far I've ruled that if the spell mentions ongoing in self-reference it counts, but I'd like an official word.

My problems with wizars are the two racial moves. I don't see why my elf wizards would get a Cleric's spell, or why my Human wizard would be more proeficient to summoning spells.

I have others questions about racial moves too, but them would get an intire new tread and I don't fell like arguing now... but I agree with everything you wrote in your op.

Bard

Bardic Lore: Get rid of area of expertise. How about they just get to ask one question about anything?

Charming and Open: Why is this player only? This would be much cooler if it worked on NPCs. Or are you assuming the DM is a player and the NPCs are his or her characters?

Port in the Storm: I thought this was much cooler in its previous iteration where the bard could name someone they knew. That's quite useful and interesting. I'm not even sure what the move is supposed to be now. A way to force the GM to flesh out the history of the town maybe? It doesn't even stipulate whether that info must be useful or not.

I really agree with ditching the Bardic Lore areas of expertise, fictionally it makes the Bard more of a focused scholar and less someone who knows little bits of everything from songs and tales. Then mechanically it really becomes a move that comes up once every now and then.

That said the flavor is really nice so maybe the Bard gets some additional bonus when using that info or something.


- Colin

When I played a bard, his powers were not explicitly magical.  For example, he would tell someone a heroic tale to take their mind off of their injury or inspire them to greatness and the healed hit points or bonus to combat were just the mechanic that backed it up his charismatic abilities.  I like to think that their art is intrinsically magical though, even if they're not conscious of it.  Perhaps they are amazing face painters (rune magic) or captivating dancers (somatic magic).  Maybe they they weave good luck charms (binding) or have terrorizing bag pipes (tonal magic). 

Posting again to correct quotes =P

I think this is easiest answered in order.

Bard

1. A Port in the Storm - nobody in my group(s) is 100% sure what the point of this is. I mostly use it as a cue to describe new places, and maybe toss in a few leads/hooks.  I note that every time this is asked I promptly address the character and ask him something in the vein of 'who did you leave behind here?', 'who is your biggest fan here?' or 'who would not be happy to see you come strutting back into town?'.  I don't know if that's intended, or if it's something I personally as a GM always feel should be appended to the move.

I know it's not a move but I figure it bears mention here as it applies to numerous bard moves:

2. Theme.  From the description the bard is an orator, historian, teller of tales.  However most of their abilities are focused around their magic Art, with no exact explanation.  I can see how a bard can be more of a non-mystic general, or inspiring comrade (pick +1d4 forward on Art, use the new and improved 'It goes to 11' to buff, take some paladin moves via multi-class like Setup Strike and CHARGE!), but where does bardic magic come from?  Alot of the abilities ('Metal Hurlant', 'It goes to 11' mentions of 'righteous lute solos') are somewhat tongue in cheek.  I know this is a D&D staple (they ended up just ruling bardic magic sorcery), but there are very few cues in your (probably intentionaly) vague fiction to even provide a framework or guidance for some answers.

Finally someone thinks like me! =)

I'm working on a variant bard class for my house game, to reflect more to what I think bard is, and it's the class that I made most of changes.

Fighter

1.  It was mentioned here on the forums that the human racial was changing, I'd ask that you re-look at the elf one too (as fighters in general have +str moves, and Precise doesn't seem to favor them per se).  Aside from that, this is actually my favorite class.

It has style, it has power, it has flavor, even some flexibility.  No complaints/problems with any of the class moves.

I really like fighters too, they are great. The only thing I miss in they is that they don't have a move for dual wield like rangers (I even don't see why rangers are good two-weapon warriors, besides Drizzt existence. I see rangers as bow, javelin or beast masters, not as two-weapon fighters).

Ranger

Animal Companion: How do you as a GM deal with the beast, it being hurt, and healing.  Clearly this is a very potent element of the ranger, and should not be taken away willy-nilly, but is a hard move disabling the beastie or simply wounding it (similar to the ferocity reduction of Man's Best Friend)?

1. I wish 'Dual Wield' would be renamed 'Hunter's Eye' or 'Go for the throat' (or the eyes BOO!). Simply because Drizzt has scarred most of us and the class-based damage-die functions regardless of 'number of wield'.  Also both abilities are named 'Dual Wield' although the higher level one references Dual Strike (bug report!)

I wish hunters had more advanced moves for bows (and see my comment about dual wielding in fighter's part).

Thief

3. Some of the level arrangements seem odd.  There are 3 poison abilities in the 2-5 range and 1 in the 6-10 range.  So you can brew any poison you use, but they're always Dangerous unless you take a different advance.  Yet you can't plan a heist, as a thief, till level 6.  (...)  It just seems odd.

I have the same problems with poison moves too.

Wizard

This class is another one of my favorites. I love how the abilities make them more arcane and creepily inhuman (speak of things nobody else knows, with a touch pluck memories, and deflect attacks better by just having magic).

1. Does the elf 'cleric' spell only count for availability, or is it added to your spellbook?

2. Prepare Spells - can you prepare the same spell more than once?

3. Spell Augumentation - there are precisely 0 marked Ongoing (which is a keyword for the cleric) spells for the wizard.  How is this mitigated a bit since some mention 'ongoing' in the spell description, but don't use the tag like the single cleric spell that has it.  Can we be clear on what constitutes 'ongoing'?

Level 1 - Mention: Invis. Suspect: Telepathy?
Level 3 - Mention: Mimic. Suspect: Mirror Image?
Level 5 - Mention: Cage, Summon Monster.  Suspect: Polymorph?
Level 7 - Mention: Dominate, True Seeing.  Suspect: Contingency
Level 9 - Mention: Antipathy. Suspect: Shelter?

Some of these have alternate end conditions, but some have alternate end conditions but still mention Ongoing (ex Cage).  So far I've ruled that if the spell mentions ongoing in self-reference it counts, but I'd like an official word.

My problems with wizars are the two racial moves. I don't see why my elf wizards would get a Cleric's spell, or why my Human wizard would be more proeficient to summoning spells.

I have others questions about racial moves too, but them would get an intire new tread and I don't fell like arguing now... but I agree with everything you wrote in your op.

Hey P2, quick Q.  You mention for the fighters you miss that they don't have a 'dual wield' move 'like the ranger'.

I note that they have 'Merciless' (which is mechanically the same, so you can flavor it however you wish) and the ability to multiclass and snag that the move for 2 weapons.

Would this cover what you're looking for, or are you hunting specifically a mention of two weapons? I'm just curious.

As for the ranger - I do note that no class has actual additional mechanical benefits for using Volley (many tinker with Hack and Slash).  Might be a cool niche.

I wrote about it earlier: http://apocalypse-world.com/forums/index.php?topic=2472.0
but here it comes again. I also think about the ranger more as a hunter - with an animal companion and bow tricks - not as a dual weapons wielding warrior. Please, give  us some ranged tricks for ranger.

Hi guys

Stras

Hey P2, quick Q.  You mention for the fighters you miss that they don't have a 'dual wield' move 'like the ranger'.

I note that they have 'Merciless' (which is mechanically the same, so you can flavor it however you wish) and the ability to multiclass and snag that the move for 2 weapons.

Would this cover what you're looking for, or are you hunting specifically a mention of two weapons? I'm just curious.

Hi Stras, Merciless is machanically the same as dual wield, yes, but we must remember that this is a game about fiction, Merciless give you more damage for being such violent or "fighting dirty", and that's why it doesn't stack with "Scent of Blood".

Sure I can say my players "you can treat Merciless as dual wiels", but it's a house rule, and it doesn't reflect well on the other fighters moves and his signature weapon.

Lets say I wish my fighter to be a dual wield one, but by the rules as writen, I only have one weapon with two enhancements. Sure I can house rule it to "you can have two signature weapon, and you can choose to apply the two enhancements in just one of then or one in each other, including two weapons with the same enhancement". But I'd like to see some official word on this, 'cause it reflects in other fighters moves too. And he'll be abandoning his shield (and thus reducing his total armor) to dual wield, favoring offence in detriment of defence.

Stras

As for the ranger - I do note that no class has actual additional mechanical benefits for using Volley (many tinker with Hack and Slash).  Might be a cool niche.

Ifryt

I wrote about it earlier: http://apocalypse-world.com/forums/index.php?topic=2472.0
but here it comes again. I also think about the ranger more as a hunter - with an animal companion and bow tricks - not as a dual weapons wielding warrior. Please, give  us some ranged tricks for ranger.

I mentioned javelin too 'cause it's used for ranged huting, and it's very iconic a hunter hunting his prey by throwing his spear at it or shoting with his bow.
 
We both think ranger to be more a skirmisher than a slayer. Well, let's hope our prayers are heard =)

@Stras Re: Thief

I've played/run it where Backstab was possible during combat, as long as the player makes an honest attempt to hide, delay, and move around in such a way as to gain obvious advantage. A reasonable situation might be that the monster/NPC sees the party and is fighting, but hasn't seen the thief (yet). I just don't see Backstab getting used a ton because of these perceived limitations, so I loosen it up a bit so the thief can shine. Give me some cool fiction and, sure, go ahead.

Defy Danger has been previously described on these forums as a move applicable to stealthy action, if there is a danger present.

EDIT: @ was wrong

@P2 Re: Thief

I've played/run it where Backstab was possible during combat, as long as the player makes an honest attempt to hide, delay, and move around in such a way as to gain obvious advantage. A reasonable situation might be that the monster/NPC sees the party and is fighting, but hasn't seen the thief (yet). I just don't see Backstab getting used a ton because of these perceived limitations, so I loosen it up a bit so the thief can shine. Give me some cool fiction and, sure, go ahead.

Defy Danger has been previously described on these forums as a move applicable to stealthy action, if there is a danger present.

I think you means @Stras, since he's the one who wrote this backstabb question =)

Oops, sorry, corrected.

Thanks for all the feedback, guys.  These are great.

As far as backstab goes, beyond the obvious answer ("it depends on the circumstances") I'd say, sure, as long as the Thief is able to get out of being observed and can manage to get into an advantageous position, it's definitely possible.  Combat can be hectic and crazy and it's easy to lose track of someone or something.

I agree that the Bard has a couple of moves that still need to be looked at (Port in the Storm, Bardic Lore). This may be just because of my personal view as to what the bard "should" look like. But I do love the bard's ability to multiclass.

I don't see why the clerics and wizards can't prepare multiple spells of the same name. If they roll a 7-9 and chose to forget that one use then they still may have another use of it. They still have to abide by the limit to how many spells they can cast, and that's really the main thing. With some wizard/cleric concepts (especially at higher levels when you can have many 1st level spells) it may not make sense for a spellcaster to have a summoning spell but instead has been playing up the fact that he is more of an evoker, so he prepares 2 magic misslle spells to make sure he can "do his thing'.

I also agree that the wizard human racial move is a bit weak as there is only one summoning spell between levels 1 and 4. So really a low level human wizard only gets his racial benefit on 1 spell, Contact Spirits. Instead, why not let the player decide what "school" of magic he can apply the bonus to? I would choose evokation as I like magic missle and fireball, but another wizard would choose illusion for his invisibilty and mirror image spells. This would go a long way to introducing a bit of difference in one player's wizard versus another.