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The sleeping Gunlugger and the shitty knife.

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Aetius

  • 24
The sleeping Gunlugger and the shitty knife.
« on: November 12, 2011, 08:45:24 AM »
Hi to everybody.

I would like to continue more deeply the discourse started here on variations for weapons in particular situations.
I'm talking especially about this post of mine and the answer by gregorpogor.

Let's imagine this situation.

Fifi the Gunlugger is sleeping beside Rouge the Battlebabe. Rouge went out of her way to put Fifi out of the game. She fought to acquire a strong narcotic, she seduced him into drink it, she fucked with him all night.
The point here is: Fifi the Gunlugger is down, defenitively by means of several moves from Rouge. Fifi's player has got plenty of possibilities to interfere and whatnot, bun now he's out.

Now Rouge takes his faithful knife and thrusts through Fifi's right eye, down, into the brain.

If you don't like this, let's say she cut his troath, or paints the bed red with his brain shooting her 9mm. It works even with a granade in his as... mouth. Basically she does something to proof-kill him: no human being could survive this.

I think this isn't even a move, a going aggro. Fifi is out. Rouge does it, stop.

But, really, Rouge's knife is only 2harm (and so is the 9mm), and usually the mighty Gunlugger can just shake off this ridicolous damage!
But... in the fiction it happened! Fifi got his brain pierced. He is, basically, dead.

How can I resolve this situation?
I've got three hypotesis running in my head.

1) 2harm is 2harm. If you want to kill Fifi you've got to repetedly stab his brain, at least 3 times.
2) Fifi's dead. No debilities, nothing. Goodbye Fifi.
3) Fifi's countodwn clock goes instantly to 12.00. Now... are we talking about debilities?

I must be frank: i like the first one the least and the third the most.
The first one is... strange. Even in a Hollywood movie it would be ridicoulus to see someone stabbed three times throught the eye before dieing.
The last one is... elegant, I believe. Ad Gregpogor said countdown are descriptive and prescritive. If something happens to send me at 12.00... I go at 12.00.

What do you think?
I'd like very much an answer from Vincent: what is "kosher" for you? But, please, I'll like also to hear different opinions and reasoning on this matter.
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Ciao, I'm Ezio, from Italy.
I'm sorry for my bad english... I'll keep studying ;-)
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gregpogor

  • 146
Re: The sleeping Gunlugger and the shitty knife.
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2011, 09:04:59 AM »
I'm pretty by-the-book myself and should my players try to really kill each other the closest I'd get from "instakill" would be jumping directly to 12:00, thanks to your remark. All the other countdowns are both prescriptive and descriptive : what their segments mean works both way, either that's what happens when you tick it off or you tick it off when it happens. Why not the PC harm countdown? Seems legit.

With the debilities rule, it allows the victim to not really be that much dead and doesn't rob them from their character if they want to cling to it, and at 11:00 — 12:00 they still can be revived by an Angel or someone with a kit, but they still have to face the consequences of the fiction (-1 stat or serious medical condition).
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Aetius

  • 24
Re: The sleeping Gunlugger and the shitty knife.
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2011, 09:42:10 AM »
Oh, well... I'm ok even with 2. Fifi had got a lot of possibility to avoid this situation before, so I would not feel an injustice: you played the game, Fifi, and you lost to Rouge. Goodbye Fifi.

It's less elegant, in my opinion, than 3 but... I can live with this (Fifi cannot XD).
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Ciao, I'm Ezio, from Italy.
I'm sorry for my bad english... I'll keep studying ;-)
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Chroma

  • 259
Re: The sleeping Gunlugger and the shitty knife.
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2011, 09:50:57 AM »
As I mentioned in the other thread:

With PCs, it's entirely different, you're attempting to deny the other player the use of their character, and that's not something easy to do in this game.  First off, in this situation, the MC should probably ask the defeated character, "Do you want to keep playing Snake Eyes Fifi, or are you cool with him dying here?"  If the player is cool with that, then he dies, and everyone moves on.

I think, with all the setup going on, Fifi's player has to be "in the know" and it's a "Tell them the possible consequences and ask" moment for the MC, well before the knife is in the eye... this might be a case of "make Apocalypse World real" and the target dies... but I think the target's player really needs a say in things.

And, again, the Debilities section deals specifically with a "proof-kill" event as its example.
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"If you get shot enough times, your body will actually build up immunity to bullets. The real trick lies in surviving the first dozen or so..."
-- Pope Nag, RPG.net - UNKNOWN ARMIES
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Aetius

  • 24
Re: The sleeping Gunlugger and the shitty knife.
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2011, 10:03:48 AM »
Well... I considered specifically that Fifi's player had got a lot of possibilities to interfere with Rouge moves. The cards are all on the table, so... I don't think I'm denying anything to him. He played the game and... well... lost it.
I'm sorry, but shit happens and he could not say that this was unexpected ;-)

On the other hand I'm totally cool with all the player "in the known". I failed to mention this particular because I gave it for granted. All what is happening is happening at the same table, I don't run "separate session" for anyone XD
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Ciao, I'm Ezio, from Italy.
I'm sorry for my bad english... I'll keep studying ;-)
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Chroma

  • 259
Re: The sleeping Gunlugger and the shitty knife.
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2011, 10:12:47 AM »
Quote from: Aetius on November 12, 2011, 10:03:48 AM
On the other hand I'm totally cool with all the player "in the known". I failed to mention this particular because I gave it for granted. All what is happening is happening at the same table, I don't run "separate session" for anyone XD

I meant "in the know" in the sense of the actual consequences, as in, "Fifi, you know that if Rouge gets you completely incapacitated, you will *DIE* when she knifes you, regardless of the actual Harm rules?"

Fifi's player: "Yeah, I know, I played and lost... *sigh* Hand me the playbooks."

vs.

Fifi's player: "WTF?  That knife is only 2-harm and I'll just take a debility if I go past 9:00, how the hell can she just kill me?!"

That kind of "in the know", since you are changing the rules of the game at that moment, and it's a pretty big moment!

I've had PCs in spots where I've told them, "You do this, you'll die, regardless of Harm." and they've been cool with taking the risk, since they KNEW it was there... to spring it on them, even after a series of unfortunate events, isn't being fair or a fan, since they've been operating under a different set of assumptions.

Me, I want to see how Fifi survives going around with no voice after Rouge left him for dead with a cut throat...  *laugh*

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"If you get shot enough times, your body will actually build up immunity to bullets. The real trick lies in surviving the first dozen or so..."
-- Pope Nag, RPG.net - UNKNOWN ARMIES
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Aetius

  • 24
Re: The sleeping Gunlugger and the shitty knife.
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2011, 10:25:29 AM »
Quote
I meant "in the know" in the sense of the actual consequences, as in, "Fifi, you know that if Rouge gets you completely incapacitated, you will *DIE* when she knifes you, regardless of the actual Harm rules?"

Fifi's player: "Yeah, I know, I played and lost... *sigh* Hand me the playbooks."

vs.

Fifi's player: "WTF?  That knife is only 2-harm and I'll just take a debility if I go past 9:00, how the hell can she just kill me?!"

That kind of "in the know", since you are changing the rules of the game at that moment, and it's a pretty big moment!

Absolutely. I strongly belive in openess and honesty at the table. I'll expect by Rouge player, if the second situation arises, to stand back graciously, if Fifi's player is really surprised.
But I would made sure that ALL at the table know ALL the rules beforehand.

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Me, I want to see how Fifi survives going around with no voice after Rouge left him for dead with a cut throat...  *laugh*

Mee too. This is why I prefer number 3 ^^
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Ciao, I'm Ezio, from Italy.
I'm sorry for my bad english... I'll keep studying ;-)
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gregpogor

  • 146
Re: The sleeping Gunlugger and the shitty knife.
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2011, 10:31:27 AM »
Quote from: Aetius on November 12, 2011, 10:25:29 AM
Quote
Absolutely. I strongly belive in openess and honesty at the table. I'll expect by Rouge player, if the second situation arises, to stand back graciously, if Fifi's player is really surprised.

But I would made sure that ALL at the table know ALL the rules beforehand.

Always say what honnesty demands, both in the fiction and around the table, after all.
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Charles Perez

  • 56
Re: The sleeping Gunlugger and the shitty knife.
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2011, 12:00:33 PM »
If I were the MC, when Rouge stabbed at Fifi, I would say, "OK, Rouge, that's going Aggro on Fifi, and it seems to me that what you want him to do is, die with his own knife through his eye. Cool?" And, if Fifi's player saw this as a good death scene for his character, he would cave. I see the going aggro move as ideal when one character has the drop on another, as with here.

Charles
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Mauro

  • 9
Re: The sleeping Gunlugger and the shitty knife.
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2011, 01:08:54 PM »
Discussing about this on an Italian forum, I explained my doubt (that is Aetius') with an example: Chaplain is standing beside Doule, who is unconscious, and puts a grenade in his mouth. BOOM!

By the rule, this is 4-harm with the chance to take a disability to avoid any past-9:00 harm.
By the fiction... how can Doule survive? His whole head blew up.

If I look to the fiction, the second option (in Aetius' list) seems to me the only reasonable, if the player can't say how taking a disability can save his unconscious character from a granade exploding in his mouth; but obviously this ignore harm and clockdown.
Than I noticed this (page 178): "The players’ character sheets, like your front countdowns, are both prescriptive and descriptive. Prescriptive: changes to the character’s sheet mean changes to the character’s fictional circumstances and capabilities; that’s the game’s experience and improvement rules, following. Descriptive too: when the character’s fictional circumstances or capabilities change naturally, within the character’s fictional world, the player can and should change her character sheet to match".
So, I was wondering: "Your head blew up" can't be a change in the fictional circumstances, bringing to a change (to 12:00, if not dead outright) in the character sheet that doesn't follow harm rules? It seems to me the situation'd be quite descriptive of that change.

Edit: Doule and Chaplain are both PCs (a faceless and a gunlugger).
« Last Edit: November 12, 2011, 01:56:49 PM by Mauro »
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Ernesto Pavan

  • 79
Re: The sleeping Gunlugger and the shitty knife.
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2011, 01:33:10 PM »
Quote from: Mauro on November 12, 2011, 01:08:54 PM
By the fiction... how can Doule survive? His whole head blew up.

I think you (and everybody else) are missing a point here. The "attacking" PC's player cannot say "I blow your head off", because he can only narrate what his character does and thinks. The rest is up to the MC. The player can only say "I activate the grenade". Then the MC says: "Ok, you're going aggro" and... lots of things can happen, including Fifi couching out the grenade and making it land directly under Rouge's crouch (a hard move from the MC). That's one of those things that make AW so interesting! Anything can happen.
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Mauro

  • 9
Re: The sleeping Gunlugger and the shitty knife.
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2011, 01:51:30 PM »
Quote from: Ernesto Pavan on November 12, 2011, 01:33:10 PM
I think you (and everybody else) are missing a point here. The "attacking" PC's player cannot say "I blow your head off", because he can only narrate what his character does and thinks. The rest is up to the MC
Yeah, sure; indeed, if you read carefully my post you'll notice I never said the player says "I blow your head off". I simply said, I quote, "Chaplain [...] puts a grenade in his mouth". So, no: I'm not missing that.
Simply, I follow the logic I saw in the story: Doule is unconscious with a grenade in his mouth, the grenade explodes, Doule's head blows up. If I were MC, that is the logic I see in the scene.

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The player can only say "I activate the grenade". Then the MC says: "Ok, you're going aggro" and... lots of things can happen, including Fifi couching out the grenade and making it land directly under Rouge's crouch (a hard move from the MC)
Assuming by "Fifi" you mean "Doule" and by Rouge, "Chaplain", there is a problem (I quote, again): "Chaplain is standing beside Doule, who is unconscious".
How can Doule do what you says, if he's unconscious? Keep in mind also that if the opponent is unconscious there is no roll to do (page 165).
Yes, sure, cool: if he's awake what you says is fine. But you changed the scene, so it's quite obvious also the results changes...

Edit: Beside, why a hard move from the MC? Chaplain didn't miss any roll, nor gave the MC a good possibility; in addition, both Doule and Chaplain are PCs (I didn't said that, sorry, but I thought them as PCs).
« Last Edit: November 12, 2011, 02:06:59 PM by Mauro »
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Ernesto Pavan

  • 79
Re: The sleeping Gunlugger and the shitty knife.
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2011, 02:10:16 PM »
Quote from: Mauro on November 12, 2011, 01:51:30 PM
Assuming by "Fifi" you mean "Doule" and by Rouge, "Chaplain", there is a problem (I quote, again): "Chaplain is standing beside Doule, who is unconscious".
How can Doule do what you says, if he's unconscious? Keep in mind also that if the opponent is unconscious there is no roll to do (page 165).
Yes, sure, cool: if he's awake what you says is fine. But you changed the scene, so it's quite obvious also the results changes...

Yeah, I was still thinkin about Aetius' example and swapped the names.
Do what? Chough when a round object of metal is forced inside his throat? I think it would be hard to anyone not to do that while conscious, let alone while sleeping. :-)

Quote
Edit: Beside, why a hard move from the MC? Chaplain didn't miss any roll, nor given the MC a good possibility; in addition, both Doule and Chaplain are PCs (I didn't said that, sorry, but I thought them as PCs).

If Chaplain goes aggro and misses his move, the MC can make a move as hard as he likes.
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Mauro

  • 9
Re: The sleeping Gunlugger and the shitty knife.
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2011, 02:24:13 PM »
Quote from: Ernesto Pavan on November 12, 2011, 02:10:16 PM
Do what? Chough when a round object of metal is forced inside his throat?
I didn't understand by "couching" you meant "coughing"; it doesn't change the meaning of what I (and Aetius) am saying: stab Doule in the eye, shot him point blank with a 3-harm gun, put a grenade beside his head... the point is: if that happens, it's deadly.

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If Chaplain goes aggro and misses his move, the MC can make a move as hard as he likes
Yeas, but that means that Chaplain has to miss; what if he didn't? The grenade is in Doule's mouth and it explodes.
And, as I said, Doule is unconscious, so no roll is required (again: page 165. Bran is helpless, Keeler doesn't roll). No roll, no miss, no hard move.
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Ernesto Pavan

  • 79
Re: The sleeping Gunlugger and the shitty knife.
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2011, 03:32:51 PM »
Another doubt: is Chaplain willing to take Harm too? Because that's what would happen if the grenade exploded immediately, close to him.
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