Problem: gunlugger that's not a gunlugger

So, I committed the cardinal sin of starting with a concept rather than starting from the game rules as written, and ended up with a conflict. I'm playing a character for whom I chose "gunlugger" on the basis that she's supposed to be, yes, an exceedingly hard-ass human being who excels at getting herself embroiled in battles with the odds stacked against her and then fighting her way out. Also slipping and accidentally punching ten dudes to death, but that was an accident, I swear.

The conflict is, the concept never included really included guns (she has NOT TO BE FUCKED WITH, meaning she can inflict 3-harm, before the bonus from Bloodcrazed, regardless of her armament or lack thereof). They aren't at odds with it, but when her class is named gunlugger, and one of its starting boons is access to munitions that other characters have to bend over backwards in-play for, the toys start feeling less like extra bits and pieces that don't define her and begin to feel more like tumours that have attached themselves uninvited. (Yes, I'm looking a gift horse in the mouth. No, I never claimed to be sane.) It doesn't help that the character concept is supposed to be poor, yet she gets a small fortune in toys. I did bully the MC into giving my character debt problems--I was pretty pissed that she gave them to another character, but never once thought to offer them to mine--but that's still a whole lot of junk for someone who's supposed to have trouble scraping by. Particularly from the start, and particularly when access to some of those items is restricted and not available to other characters short of them making a mission out of it (the fuck-off big guns and the armour-piercing ammo, particularly).

So I'm honestly a little lost here as to what to do about my gunlugger who isn't a gunlugger. Just suck it up, submit to sanity, and staple on a rationalization as to why she has the crazy-expensive-and-hard-to-obtain-toys and is called a gunlugger (the skinner she's in a relationship with offered that they might have been a gift from him when he was doing better financially, but this is a machine gun and AP ammo we're talking about), or ditch them/let other characters have them? In particular, I'll admit just having her called a gunlugger is getting to be a burn at this point, and I would strangle a small army just for a different class name that does not bring the idea right back around to toys. I'm even considering dropping the custom 2-armour I came up with for her in favour of Impossible Reflexes at her next improvement, though that may be my emotions and not my good sense talking.

My apologies for so much rambling about something so insignificant.

NINJA EDIT: Yes, I took the guillotine chokehold as my "backup weapon." Now if only I could take an "embedded move" like that for my FOBG, too.

What is stopping you from just saying you don't have the guns?

I don't really see the problem here.

Um, do you enjoy playing this character? How many sessions are you in? Because you could always 'retire' her and follow the playbook as written without having a 'concept'. Or perhaps go with a Battlebabe? Don't forget that AW is all about fundamental scarcity. That's the point. There is no status quo in AW. Wants, needs and moves to go about getting or threatening them.

So you have a BFOG and plenty of ammo. So what? That sounds like a great yarn in the making to me. The MC will surely find a way of depleting your ammo, and you'll just have to go find / steal / haggle / extort some more. Maybe make a front wondering about the answer to that very question...

What is stopping you from just saying you don't have the guns?

I don't really see the problem here.

Nothing; now I'm just trying to figure out how to discharge them. Say I never had'em and let another player have them; say I never had'em and let the MC put them on the near-future treasure table to discharge an OOC problem (why do I have these) into an IC problem (who gets these); ask the MC if I can trade the FOBG and AP ammo for Impossible Reflexes or just adding Impossible Reflexes to the list of moves I can get in-class (which again bumps into the cool custom armour issue); or some combination of the above. Another possibility being discharging the OOC problem into an IC problem by going with the "skinner got them for her as a gift" thing, and having her blow up at him and generally resent them as an accusation of weakness, though that would be more fun on-camera than in the background.

So, yeah, I'm basically having a great big fight with myself. This is a pretty daily thing with me.

Um, do you enjoy playing this character? How many sessions are you in? Because you could always 'retire' her and follow the playbook as written without having a 'concept'. Or perhaps go with a Battlebabe? Don't forget that AW is all about fundamental scarcity. That's the point. There is no status quo in AW. Wants, needs and moves to go about getting or threatening them.

So you have a BFOG and plenty of ammo. So what? That sounds like a great yarn in the making to me. The MC will surely find a way of depleting your ammo, and you'll just have to go find / steal / haggle / extort some more. Maybe make a front wondering about the answer to that very question...

Greatly, two or three, hell no, hell no, yeah I know.

Incidentally we've kicked around various alternative names for the class, but none have really "stuck." (Another player likes "Heavy," but that just conjures up images of the heavy-weapons-user in TF2.) Seriously, the abilities have nothing to do with guns, and the description doesn't even have anything to do with guns, and yet somehow it ended up called the gunlugger.

Here this is easy. Change all the range tags on the weaponry to 'hand' and refluff them as like, junkyard shit. "Car door 3-harm hand loud" "Tire iron 2-harm hand ap"

Sounds like a good excuse to make a custom playbook. :)
Is there a character in film, TV or literature that you can accurately compare her too? Maybe we could come up with one.

I had a similar problem with a new player who went concept first and wanted to have someone like John McClane from Die hard. But you didn't see him running around all the time in body armor toting a machine gun.

I suggested he could try being an operator, but he didn't like the gigs idea, so he's going to just have to drop some of his preconceptions and find his own voice instead.

Shreyas, that's a pretty damn fine solution. I was going to say it sounds like she should be playing a faceless, but I think I I like your idea better.

Sounds like a good excuse to make a custom playbook. :)

Nah. I mean, you're basically sayingthis:

Allison: "I want to play a brainer but I don't want to dress like a dominatrix."
Phil: "You should make a custom playbook that's exactly like a brainer but you wear a sun dress and flip-flops."

With regards to the name, just throwing in the idea that in the Deadwood hack mentioned elsewhere, the Gunlugger is rebranded the 'Muscle', which, to my reading, would be more suited, since it isn't gun-focused, while still keeping front-and-centre exactly what the class is about.

Here this is easy. Change all the range tags on the weaponry to 'hand' and refluff them as like, junkyard shit. "Car door 3-harm hand loud" "Tire iron 2-harm hand ap"

Shreyas, that's a pretty damn fine solution. I was going to say it sounds like she should be playing a faceless, but I think I I like your idea better.

I did have the thought of picking some alternate, less "fancy" equipment--like, say, a sledgehammer (perhaps 3-harm hand ap messy, since hammers were historically used to ruin the day of people in armour), though your suggestion, and mine, run the risk of making powerful items too cheap, because really, how much barter is that junkyard stuff worth? (I had to shake the details out of my MC, but she ponied up that she'd expect a player to be able to pony up 3 or 4 barter to get an FOBG or AP ammo, and that's with special arrangements, assuming they didn't have to take the knife discount.)

I did consider perhaps asking for some equipment with the "embedded" tag, akin to the guillotine chokehold (which I did take), but that runs into the problem of exactly how much is the "embedded" tag worth and where do you draw the line between "embedded" equipment and moves (i.e., 2-armour embedded vs. Impossible Reflexes)?

As for the Faceless, I'll admit that I considered it. I ended up deciding that it would make an excellent prestige class for her, if you will--it even lends itself to a Dramatic Turn of Events come the class change to support her suddenly suffering from the "grotesque" penalty when the mask comes off. That, and the sex power is awesome and fits her very well.

Sounds like a good excuse to make a custom playbook. :)
Is there a character in film, TV or literature that you can accurately compare her too? Maybe we could come up with one.

Quote from: Philomorph on July 25, 2011, 11:21:31 AM

Sounds like a good excuse to make a custom playbook. :)

Nah. I mean, you're basically sayingthis:

Allison: "I want to play a brainer but I don't want to dress like a dominatrix."
Phil: "You should make a custom playbook that's exactly like a brainer but you wear a sun dress and flip-flops."

Yeah, it's kinda like that. I like the gunlugger's abilities. I even like the description blurb introducing it in the trifold. I can even accept getting stuck with Hot-1 (I maintain she's attractive in a rugged kind of way, but apparently she's used to getting her way through strength rather than manipulation). But the name's gotta go, the equipment I'm presently deciding what the hell to do with, and looks I already stole from the battlebabe (you know, boyish face and muscular/scarred body and all that).

Incidentally, another player in the group, who also MCs another campaign, was working on a variant, less... defined-by-equipment "gunlugger," though it hasn't been going well--not for lack of me urging her on in a last-ditch attempt to save what's left of my sanity. One of the big stumbling blocks at the moment is that it's not clear where techniques-as-"embedded"-equipment (think guillotine chokehold) end and moves begin.

Backtracking a bit: I'll admit that when I first looked at the Faceless, I balked at the whole "mask" idea, but when I turned my thought process upside down and asked myself, "And what if you just tried to play the class straight rather than fighting it?" it grew on me. I even ended up with an idea of how it would come to pass as a second class and everything (that her lover's player happens to have a thing for the Phantom of the Opera didn't hurt in making this decision). I tried the same approach to gunlugger as her first class--I mean, at her core, she's really a Tough Guy, if a financially challenged one, and that doesn't necessarily preclude guns--and I honestly don't know why it's been bugging me, though one rationalization that's come to mind is whether anyone packing that kind of heat could really be considered financially challenged, especially considering she could do her job very well even with her bare hands, let alone even mediocre weapons like a hunting rifle (one solution I've been considering is to give up my FOBG to let the Ruin Runner have AP ammo gunlugger-style, and taking a hunting rifle and perhaps an SMG, which are much less financially intense than the FOBG and AP ammo would logically have been).

With regards to the name, just throwing in the idea that in the Deadwood hack mentioned elsewhere, the Gunlugger is rebranded the 'Muscle', which, to my reading, would be more suited, since it isn't gun-focused, while still keeping front-and-centre exactly what the class is about.

...Oh shit, I like it. She's the team's muscle. This is sounding dangerously appropriate.

run the risk of making powerful items too cheap, because really, how much barter is that junkyard stuff worth?

This is silly. I mean, really, do you think it's an intrinsic property of ripped-off car doors that they're a 3-harm weapon? You really do? Don't read equipment stat lines as inalienable descriptions of objects in the game; the MC chapter goes so far as to say, "Create the illusion that what you say is caused by events in the fiction, but you're actually following the rules and principles instead." I don't see a rule or principle that says equipment stat lines are objective. If a brainer gave your chracter a violation glove, would you know what to do with it? Same thing.

What I'm saying is that you're making a giant horrorshow out of character creation because you're doing it wrong. There are two ways to fix it:

1 - Don't come to character creation with a concept. Flip through the playbooks, choose one, and make the choices it asks you to make, the way the book tells you to do.

2 - If you come with a concept, be comfortable with tweaking the color of things without getting your kidneys in a bunch. There is no fictional causality in Apocalypse World, and PCs are exceptional rather than ordinary, so your PC is explicitly saying nothing about what else exists or happens in the world. Cling to that, it's your lifeline in the storm of your self-doubt.

Some thoughts in no particular order.

Q. A gunlugger has guns but those aren't cheap! That makes no sense, does it?

A. "Six men came to kill me one time. And the best of 'em carried this. It's a Callahan full-bore auto-lock. Customized trigger, double cartridge thorough gauge. It is my very favorite gun. I call it Vera." The wasteland is much more a cage match than an economy, ain't it?

Q. My stuff doesn't match my character concept, what do I do?

A. So don't have the stuff. Negotiate with the MC for something in exchange for the stuff. I once had a car as my operator's "signature weapon", sacrificed barter at chargen to get extra brainer gear, all kinds of things.

Q. The name of the playbook doesn't really fit my concept.

A. It doesn't have to. A playbook is not necessarily the name that everyone calls you in-fiction. You could just be called "the tough guy". The group does probably naturally gravitate towards calling her "your gunlugger", so if you want that to change, express your wishes clearly.


Oh, and are you sure you wouldn't rather be playing a Battlebabe? There seems to be a vibe!

I did have the thought of picking some alternate, less "fancy" equipment--like, say, a sledgehammer (perhaps 3-harm hand ap messy, since hammers were historically used to ruin the day of people in armour), though your suggestion, and mine, run the risk of making powerful items too cheap, because really, how much barter is that junkyard stuff worth? (I had to shake the details out of my MC, but she ponied up that she'd expect a player to be able to pony up 3 or 4 barter to get an FOBG or AP ammo, and that's with special arrangements, assuming they didn't have to take the knife discount.)

I did consider perhaps asking for some equipment with the "embedded" tag, akin to the guillotine chokehold (which I did take), but that runs into the problem of exactly how much is the "embedded" tag worth and where do you draw the line between "embedded" equipment and moves (i.e., 2-armour embedded vs. Impossible Reflexes)?

I have to say, I feel like this is a little overcomplicated.  If you want melee weapons instead of guns, take them instead -- just substitute the faceless equipment list, which has lots of nice weapons. Or substitute the battlebabe's custom melee weapons for some of your guns. (I have to say, I have no idea what makes your character a gunlugger, if she doesn't have any guns, has fancy melee weapons, and doesn't run around in extremely heavy armor. That's a battlebabe to me!)

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run the risk of making powerful items too cheap, because really, how much barter is that junkyard stuff worth?

This is silly. I mean, really, do you think it's an intrinsic property of ripped-off car doors that they're a 3-harm weapon? You really do? Don't read equipment stat lines as inalienable descriptions of objects in the game; the MC chapter goes so far as to say, "Create the illusion that what you say is caused by events in the fiction, but you're actually following the rules and principles instead." I don't see a rule or principle that says equipment stat lines are objective. If a brainer gave your chracter a violation glove, would you know what to do with it? Same thing.

What I'm saying is that you're making a giant horrorshow out of character creation because you're doing it wrong. There are two ways to fix it:

1 - Don't come to character creation with a concept. Flip through the playbooks, choose one, and make the choices it asks you to make, the way the book tells you to do.

2 - If you come with a concept, be comfortable with tweaking the color of things without getting your kidneys in a bunch. There is no fictional causality in Apocalypse World, and PCs are exceptional rather than ordinary, so your PC is explicitly saying nothing about what else exists or happens in the world. Cling to that, it's your lifeline in the storm of your self-doubt.

Well said on the equipment; that's a good way to look at it. (Though the violation glove comparison might be a bit off--what keeps her from using it isn't lack of knowledge per se so much as lack of psychic powers. You could tell her what it is and how it's used and everything; she just doesn't have anything to use it for.) Also, I can't do #1 to save my life, so it's #2 or bust--now I'm working on the meat and potatoes of what to change.

Some thoughts in no particular order.

Q. A gunlugger has guns but those aren't cheap! That makes no sense, does it?

A. "Six men came to kill me one time. And the best of 'em carried this. It's a Callahan full-bore auto-lock. Customized trigger, double cartridge thorough gauge. It is my very favorite gun. I call it Vera." The wasteland is much more a cage match than an economy, ain't it?

Q. My stuff doesn't match my character concept, what do I do?

A. So don't have the stuff. Negotiate with the MC for something in exchange for the stuff. I once had a car as my operator's "signature weapon", sacrificed barter at chargen to get extra brainer gear, all kinds of things.

Q. The name of the playbook doesn't really fit my concept.

A. It doesn't have to. A playbook is not necessarily the name that everyone calls you in-fiction. You could just be called "the tough guy". The group does probably naturally gravitate towards calling her "your gunlugger", so if you want that to change, express your wishes clearly.

That exact comparison has been made to me several times (and yes, by that standard, it's hard to justify Daryl being poor; I'm not entirely sure why I'm trying to keep it, though again, I did bully the MC into giving her debt trouble); I agree, I'm just working on exactly what to keep, what to charitably give to other players, what to toss onto the near-future treasure table, and what to sacrifice for something else (and what that something else would be); and yes, I'm most definitely trying to communicate "stop calling me gunlugger and stop thinking of me as a gunlugger" to them because "well, you're a gunlugger, so that's why you have guns, right?" has been said more than once and it never gets less upsetting. I'm trying to avoid being defined by guns here.

Oh, and are you sure you wouldn't rather be playing a Battlebabe? There seems to be a vibe!

I have to say, I feel like this is a little overcomplicated.  If you want melee weapons instead of guns, take them instead -- just substitute the faceless equipment list, which has lots of nice weapons. Or substitute the battlebabe's custom melee weapons for some of your guns. (I have to say, I have no idea what makes your character a gunlugger, if she doesn't have any guns, has fancy melee weapons, and doesn't run around in extremely heavy armor. That's a battlebabe to me!)

For the former: what vibe, and for the latter, intrinsic qualities, obviously. She's not a Battlebabe because Battlebabes are horrifically misnamed. Battlebabes aren't hardcore fighters. They are rogues. Daryl is not a rogue. Daryl is a hardcore fighter. Daryl doesn't lose her edge when the fight goes from going aggro to seizing by force; no, that's when it's just gettin' good. Daryl is Hard as fuck and can still act under fire like a pro in no small part because she has no Cool to lose in the first place. Daryl burns as hot as a southwestern wildfire instead of freezing like the coldest winter chill. Daryl would tear someone's heart out and eat it if they ever insinuated to her face that she is a Battlebabe.

You'll notice none of the things I listed have anything to do with what toys she gets, but absolutely affect which of the two classes' stat arrays and powers would fit her. I actually tried to shoehorn her into Battlebabe for a while before I gave up and accepted that the intrinsic qualities of the Gunlugger simply fit her better, even if its skin and extrinsic qualities were, well, a questionable fit.

For the former: what vibe, and for the latter, intrinsic qualities, obviously. She's not a Battlebabe because Battlebabes are horrifically misnamed. Battlebabes aren't hardcore fighters. They are rogues.

You're bringing this to the piece. I'm playing a battlebabe right now, and Smith is not a rogue.