Gunluggers and Hot in General

So hi everyone this is my first post here. I've been lurking for awhile and just decided to pose a question now. Albeit a rather silly one perhaps.

I was talking with a friend the other day about Gunluggers and how physically attractive they can be. Obviously they aren't going to be seductive with a low Hot stat (which they notably can't increase) , but they also have facial options which are all potentially unattractive (if they are described by their defining trait).

“Scarred face, blunt face,  bony face,  dull face, worn face, or blasted face.”

Now I assume scarred face could theoretically be attractive in a really rugged sort of way (e.g. John Marston from Red Dead Redemption ).

Worn (if read as tired as opposed to old/leathery ) and Bony (if not emaciated) could work maybe..

But the best you can have is the -1, so does this put your character squarely in ugly-ville so-to-speak?


This kind of brings up the question where would an ultra attractive person with no seduction fall on the scale? Obviously a person who above average (or even average) and has skills of seduction or animal attraction would have positive Hot.

I was made a tad more confused because of the Gunlugger example of Keeler ,who isn't that bad looking, but I understand if she is just there for “the art”.

Thanks for any insights.

I suspect this is pretty cut and dry but curious to hear from others.

By default, everyone in Apocalypse World is totally sexy and awesome and you want to fuck them. Unless, like, you're the Brainer in my game and you describe yourself as "an obese, smelly man who walks around in stinking scuba gear all the time." In which case, no, I don't want to fuck you.

But looking good doesn't mean that they're good at seduction and manipulation, though. Hot is less about looking sexy and more about using what you got.

So Keeler may be physically attractive, but she is terrible at trying to manipulate and seduce others. She just blunders around socially, being manipulated and seduced, and all the more "attractive" target because of her appearance.

I mean, we all know people like this, right? Does that make sense?

yrs--
--Ben

Thanks for responding and yeah that does make sense. And it's definitely one way I could see things going since mechanically that is how Hot works. You are seducing or manipulating people.

What threw me and my friend off was the description of Hot.

Hot meaning fucking hot, attractive, subtle, gracious, sexy, beautiful, inspiring, exciting.

Now subtle,gracious,inspiring and exciting obviously don't have to do with looks but the others do. For the most part (though I suppose someone can be beautiful without being outright sexy or overtly sexy).

What compounds this are the options the various playbooks are given. Playbooks that can increase their Hot stat are given ,what I think most of society would deem, more attractive .

To compare and contrast

Those who can increase Hot with progress (facial options)
Battlebabe(smooth,sweet,handsome,sharp,girlish, boyish, striking)
Driver (Handsome,gorgeous, stern, fine-boned, worn, crooked)
Hardholder(strong, stern, cruel, soft, aristocratic, or gorgeous)
The Skinner(Striking,sweet, strange, cute, or beautiful)

Those who cannot increase Hot with progress
Angel(kind, strong,  rugged, haggard, rugged, pretty, lively)
Brainer(Scarred ,smooth, pale, bony, plump moist, sweet)
Chopper(weathered, strong, rugged, narrow, busted)
Gunlugger(scarred,  blunt, bony, dull, worn, blasted)
Hocus (innocent, dirty, determined, open, severe, or ascetic)
The Operator (worn, pretty, honest, rough, hard, or open)
The Savvyhead (plain, pretty, open, or expressive)

The fact that you have the hot definition which includes look with the above options . Granted some of those that improve have "pretty" and such and other ones you could probably expand to say are good look 'determined" or "rugged".

You're on to something, Invisible Man.  There is a direct correlation between those who can advance Hot and those who already are by certain societal standards in their description options.  So the system itself kinda says: "Yeah, if you're a chopper with a busted face, don't be expecting to seduce/manipulate anyone any time soon."

But I'm curious about your beauty taxonomy:  what's wrong with the Angel? How are the Hocus' descriptors any more/less "beautiful" than the Hardholder's?

I mean, to a large degree we're playing in Vincent's post-apocalyptic sandbox here, so when you get into questions of "Why can't my character be this/that way AND possess all the in-game effectiveness suggested by it?" then you're broaching the larger topic of "Why does Vincent force us down this/that vision of the archetype and not this other, equally fine alternative?"

The answer, I think, lies in the same direction as the name lists: if you just go ahead and name your gunlugger Julien Donkey-Boy ('cause you've been watching too many Harmony Korine films), no self-respecting MC will stop you.  If you timidly ask them if you're character could be more attractive, they will suggest you choose a look from the playbook.  But if you're like "No, my angular bodied Brainer fucking looks like a Greek goddess," you have successfully asserted that fact in the world.  And if you say to your MC "I want Julien Donkey-Boy to raise +1 Hot rather than +1 Cool" and it seems to come from your character's narrative and not vanity- or twinkie-based reasons, then why the hell not?

Editorial: You only run into problems when you just want to play the hot guy with the big gun whom everyone wants to fuck... and you have the in-game power to persuade them if they don't.  Some things have to be achieved via role-playing.

But I'm curious about your beauty taxonomy:  what's wrong with the Angel? How are the Hocus' descriptors any more/less "beautiful" than the Hardholder's?

I tried to address this a bit when I said that some of the non-hot play books didn't have bad choices (e.g. pretty, determined, rugged, smooth, strong, etc. ), but I guess I didn't do a great job.  It's one of the reasons I had a bit of doubt about the hot/attractive connection but figured it had to do with flavor and the like.

 As for Hardholders specifically aside from having access to gorgeous and aristocratic (the latter I don't see as inherently attractive). They are pretty similar to Hocus' and Angels in terms of choice.

I'm not so sure the Hocus' and Hardholder's looks are the same, really - the Hardholder has some which are almost overtly "pretty", like gorgeous, soft, aristocratic - when you're describing someone, those are things that paint them in a positive light, in my eyes. Meanwhile, the Hocus ones read like how you'd describe a person you're trying to set up with a friend with, positive-sounding but not exactly pretty - "oh, he's got a really honest/open/innocent face, you'll love him". Not that I'm speaking from experience here, nope, not at all. Cough.

Of course, this is entirely subjective!

I also find it interesting that the playbooks in the "don't improve Hot" category tend to have a single overtly attractive-sounding descriptor, to match the single stat-line they have which has positive Hot. "Sweet" for the Brainer, "pretty" for the Angel and Savvyhead, etc.

What comes first, the description or the playbook?  Operators aren't cool because they're operators.  They're operators because they're cool.

So, a boys and girls grow up in Apocalypse World yearning for...something.  The smart ones learn to lean on smart to get it.  The spooky ones learn to lean on spooky.  And the poor fugly lugger-babies pick up the gun and become mean motherfuckers.

The Gunlugger secretly wishes she could have been sexy enough to be a Battlebabe.  The Battlebabe wishes he could have been mean enough to to be a Gunlugger.  The weird creepy mind-controlling mold is always greener on the other side.  Unless you're a Skinner.  Skinners are the best.

See, I think I can agree with this idea that people are Gunluggers because they're ugly just as much as I can agree that people are Skinners because they're beautiful. I just have one of those weird sensibilities where, at least with a group of people I know understand the way the game works, I'm not going to limit them to that kind of playbook determinism - if they say their Gunlugger has a handsome face, I'm going to be like, "shit, okay, now what's a handsome guy like you doing making a living by carrying a big gun and fucking people up?" That just makes me want to know more about that character!

As always, though, your mileage may vary, I have some pretty weird opinions about this game.

Sidenote: I'm not sure the Battlebabe inherently wants or wishes for anything, isn't that the point of the playbook?