Constitution overpowered?

Great thread guys!
I like the idea of a 'suggested array' for first time players, the same way as in BX D&D the rules gave you suggestions on which class to choose based on your (rolled) stats. Since DW chooses playbook, then stats, it only makes sense to have a similar level of guidance 'baked in' to the playbooks.

I would have the Stats listed on each playbook in order of 'suggested importance', with the array to match. So continuing the fighter example:

Fighters rely on their strength in battle (STR), fast reactions (DEX) and stout resolve (CON) to overcome whatever the dungeon throws at them. For your first game, we suggest this is a good starting point -
Strength (suggested 17)    +2
Dexterity (15)                   +1
Constitution (13)               +1
Wisdom (11)                    0
Intelligence (9)                 0
Charisma (8 )                    -1

If you comfortable with Dw (or roleplaying) you may consider swapping Stat Allocations as you see fit for the concept of your fighter.

Have the basics (and the options for advanced players) listed on the playbook.

Quote from: sage on March 01, 2012, 06:02:45 PM

The rules proper and the playbooks are the exact same, I think they'll stay that way.

But I did just suggest the same thing to Adam:

You have Strength 17, Constitution 13, Dexterity 15, Intelligence 9, Wisdom 11, and Charisma 8 by default. Swap stats as you please.

And actually, that's pretty close to something you suggested up-thread as well:

Quote from: sage on March 01, 2012, 05:36:59 PM

If this is your first time playing this class assign 17, 15, 13 to Strength, Consitution, and Dexterity, then assign 11, 9, 8 to your remaining stats. If you've played this class before assign 17, 15, 13, 11, 9, 8 as you please.

Pretty close, but the intent was that 17, 15, 13 go to those stats any way you please. 17 Con, 15 Dex, 13 Str maybe. Or 17 Dex, 13 Con, 15 Str. Whatever.

The way I see it there are far more ways to screw up the stats than make a character playable by the average player. The 9 Con Fighter is advanced play, as is the 9 Wisdom Cleric, the 9 Charisma Bard, etc. They're not wrong, but you need to know what you're getting into, and it has to be a warning with teeth.

Part of this is that I hate prose stat advice with a vengance. How many times have we all read "Strength will help you hit and do damage. Constitution and Dexterity are important to defense. Intelligence will give you more skills." or something like it? They're instantly ignorable by even first-time players. It took me years of D&D play to realize that "recommended starting packages" were actually the best way to play most of the time because they seemed like crutches, not the default. This kind of soft recommendation is utterly lame.

I'd like a system that makes a good stat array a hard default, one that will often be taken. Note that there can be multiple "good" stat arrays, we just shouldn't have arrays that make the character harder to play. AW does this by just having you choose from stat arrays, but we've got this tradition of assigning scores (plus listing arrays takes more space than I'd like).

Spitballing some ideas:

Questionarie-style: "Are spells your bread and butter? If so Int 17"

Arrays: Choose Str 17, Dex 15, Con 13 or Str 15, Con 13, Dex 17

Prime Requisites: To play a wizard you must put a stat with a positive modifier in Intelligence. To play a fighter you must put a stat with a positive modifier in two of Strength, Dexterity, and Consitution.

Procedure: Look over the basic moves and your class moves. Chose a move to define your character, the stat used by that move gets 17. Then introduce the other players to your moves and ask them which basic or class move will help them the most, that one gets 15. Assign the rest of your stats as you see fit.

I dig the idea of a questionnaire if any thing, if the worry is for new players than hitching the stat choice to fiction is best.

I also like the check your moves advise, maybe that should be a question? "Do you see a move you really like, put a X in that stat" or something. Maybe even tailored more like for the Thief "do you plan on using the backstab or hack and slash move as often as possible? Place a 15 or 17 in Strength"

I like the "keep it simple" rule.  How about a single line of text something like, "For new players, each playbook has a suggested order of importance."  (Or something like that.)  And then the stat boxes on the playbooks could have light grey A,B,C,D,E and F to show that order of importance?

Pretty close, but the intent was that 17, 15, 13 go to those stats any way you please. 17 Con, 15 Dex, 13 Str maybe. Or 17 Dex, 13 Con, 15 Str. Whatever.

Yep, I got it. The big similarity was "Hey, do this____, but if you've played before do this _____"

I'd like a system that makes a good stat array a hard default, one that will often be taken.

With you here too. It sounds like a hard default is okay solves the problem: namely that a first time player could get bad/no GM advice and make an un-fun character.

Spitballing some ideas:

Questionarie-style: "Are spells your bread and butter? If so Int 17"

Arrays: Choose Str 17, Dex 15, Con 13 or Str 15, Con 13, Dex 17

Prime Requisites: To play a wizard you must put a stat with a positive modifier in Intelligence. To play a fighter you must put a stat with a positive modifier in two of Strength, Dexterity, and Consitution.

Procedure: Look over the basic moves and your class moves. Chose a move to define your character, the stat used by that move gets 17. Then introduce the other players to your moves and ask them which basic or class move will help them the most, that one gets 15. Assign the rest of your stats as you see fit.

I too like the questionnaire-style (with the procedure-style integrated into the questions), because it establishes right off the bat that the fiction matters more than the numbers, that this is a game about dialogue between GM and player, and that this is what a character will be doing in the game.

In a way it's a codification of the run-through the stats at the start of the game, so I personally think it's a good GM habit to instill.

Prime reqs and arrays would probably be quicker, but wouldn't establish the flavour/tone/style.

That's interesting Sage, I never characterised that suggestions from the game designers for starting characters were crutches and therefore lame. Huh. Now that you mention it, I do recall players adopting that point of view. 'Fuck you game designers, what would you know?   You ain't telling me how to choose my character, so I'll choose this in spite of your (very good!) advice.'

I've always liked Vx's  (and Your) reliance on lists and choices from lists. Maybe the default could be from three or four arrays that are pre-assigned to the stat block, with descriptive tags. So:

Choose your stat block:
Are you a hardened Fighter? Then choose - Strength 17, Constitution 13, Dexterity 15, Intelligence 9, Wisdom 11, and Charisma 8

Or a tough, wily fighter?  Then choose - Strength 13, Constitution 17, Dexterity 11, Intelligence 8, Wisdom 15, and Charisma 9

Or a fast, shrewd fighter Then Choose - Strength 15, Constitution 9, Dexterity 17, Intelligence 13, Wisdom 11, and Charisma 8

Or a Lover, not a fighter? Then Choose - Strength 17, Constitution 8, Dexterity 13, Intelligence 11, Wisdom 9, and Charisma 15

Then have the option in the Advanced Delving Section to assign your Stats from the standard array (or rolling the 4d6 method).

Adam and I talked about this a bit before he left on vacation, I think we settled on something that I see as a rule (which makes me happy) but some people will take as advice (which makes those people happy).

Instead of something per class we expanded the character creation step to be this (which a lot of people were already doing, but now it's a rule):

Look over the basic moves and the starting moves for your class. Pick out the move that interests you the most: something you'll be doing a lot, or something that you excel at. Put your 17 in the stat for that move. Look over the list again and pick out the next most important move to your character, maybe something that supports your first choice. Put your 15 in the stat for that move. Repeat this process for your remaining scores: 13, 11, 9, 8.



It gives me that system I wanted where we can point to something in the rules when someone says "but the wizard got more HP than me!" "Well, he said Defending was important to him, you didn't." But it also doesn't block the crazy setups "Yeah, my fighter prefers to talk his way out."

Two thumbs up.