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Messages - donbaloo

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Dungeon World / Re: Weapon Lengths, come up much?
« on: April 14, 2012, 01:28:41 AM »
Well I've endeavored to make it a nonissue for Rudiger the Fighter. We started play tonight and I chose a Human Fighter with an Axe for signature. Chose range Close, and then versatile for Reach. Human has me covered on Hand. I should be good until someone starts flinging arrows! ;)

Okay, that was quick and without much color. Interject a ton of laughter and a bit of nerves here and there, a ton of dice rolling, and some roleplay and you have an idea of what the game was like.

The entire group LOVED the system and how it flowed, we immediately planned a tentative two week date for Session 2. We played for 4 hours tonight and that includes character generation.

The GM will likely chime here with his perspective and feedback as well but I'll just throw some stuff out there. First, the XPs. From just general talk around about the game I was sort of under the impression that Fighters leveled up disproportionately to other classes under the Basic rules. (We used straight Basic rules for this play). This was NOT the case for us. I think something like 60 rolls were made tonight (not including damage rolls) and far and away most of them were Defy Danger and Discern Reality. I played the Fighter and ended with 10 XPs. Pox ended up with 26 XPs and Siggrun ended with 11 XP. Maybe its just playstyle but the Thief was rolling left and right. As a group we always looked the situation over in each room, searched for traps, and whenever a fight was imminent we utilized ranged as much as possible before closing into melee. This style heavily supported the Thief's XP.

Defy Danger. Man this got rolled a lot. After talking with the GM (Ice Jester here) we both agreed that this may have been a result of not giving each one enough teeth. The firefly room and the illusion parade room felt like there were a ton of baby step soft moves (we had a shitload of 7-9 Defy Danger rolls) but since they were all partial successes they never led to any real consequences, but we still had to keep making the rolls. I'm pretty sure the Thief earned about 10 XP in that room alone. I think some of the "no teeth" issue will be cleaned up as we get more comfortable with the system though.

We also agreed that we tended to fall into old traditional gaming habits of sorts, just having the conversation without really making moves occasionally. I think there were a number of times that we were probably Discerning Realities but we weren't really triggering the move. Don't get me wrong, we Discerned Realities A LOT, but I still caught us having a casual conversation about "looking over here" for such and such without rolling any dice. I think this happened mostly when one person did a Discern Realities but then a little later in the room that person would be looking for something else after having used up their questions.

Hmmm...that's a long read for now. I'll wait for Ice Jester to chime in before saying much more. We had a blast though. Its our first time back to the table in probably 4 or 5 months so we were mostly just exploring and having old school fun without much character roleplaying or greater motivations. Which is fine, that stuff will come with more games. I love watching characters being discovered before your eyes in play, so that'll be cool. But I think it says a lot about a game that you can teach it to someone, create characters, and be in the thick of it from a cold start within an hour. And that was WITH my 3 year old bouncing around the living room!

More later... 

Dungeon World / Bloodstone Idol AP and Discussion (obviously spoilers)
« on: April 14, 2012, 01:16:23 AM »
Alright, just finished our first play of DW and much fun was had by all! Here's the quick and dirty on what happened in game. We were hitting the Bloodstone Idol and my buddy, first time GMing (actually I was reminded that its his second, ran Og a while back), did a pretty sweet job.

Rudigar the Fighter, Pox the Thief and Siggrun the (Evil) Cleric are hunkered down outside the main entrance, scoping the place out. Two goblin lookouts appear to be the only obstacle but a Discern Realities later shows that there's some oil in the road, a potential trap. Not wasting much time Pox attempts to slip up on the sentries but fails and gets spotted by another lookout above who calls the alarm. Pox fires an arrow and drops one goblin while Rudigar and Siggrun charge to the doors. We notice the other goblin become terrified as 5 lizardmen coming swarming around an outcrop towards us and we all pile through the front door and slam it shut behind us, but not before Pox drops another goblin with his bow.

We're greeted by an insanely loud image being "projected" maybe out of a mosaic on the floor, greeting us all by name and essentially notifying everyone of our presence. After hearing some battle from one of the corridors we choose the other but not before we realize that our weapons are growing warmer. In hopes that it has something to do with the magics in the room, we move quickly into the corridor which solves the problem. With Pox keeping an eye out for traps we proceed down the corridor until we get to a door. A quick listen and lock pick later, we're in a room full of shelves...and spirits. Well, two of them. They're mumbling some stuff about "sunlight" and "kill the goblins".

Rudigar offers up that we're already working on the goblins, which really catches one of the spirits interest and he approaches to essentially beseech us to continue to wipe out the goblins. We promise to do just that and Rudigar even escorts the other spirit to the front door (more loud greetings) and sets the spirit free. Siggrun, back in the room, also gets the name of the other spirit's wife and a request to visit her and let her know that her husband has moved on to a better place. Meanwhile, Pox has searched the room over and turned up a nifty magical rope that appears to do his bidding. He's quite pleased.

Heading down the corridor Pox finally flubs a trap roll and we all fall for the old stairs-into-slide trick and get dumped in the mud in a strange room full of glowing veins of some kind of ore and big damn fireflies. Siggrun and Rudiger are happy enough to ease out of the room, leaving well enough alone but some failed Defy Dangers had us in a heap again with fireflies swarming down at us. Pox used his new rope and a Discern Realities to escape back up the slide while Rudiger and Siggrun dashed out of the room and made in a stand in the more narrow corridor beyond. Only 4 fireflies followed and it was a tough battle with both taking some heavy damage but surviving, while Pox hung back and waited for things to settle down. Some cure lights wounds and a quick breather and we're all plowing ahead again.

Next room is a weird looking parade of mystical creatures, blocking us from getting to the far side but a Discern Realities tells us that only the Goblins are real and that the others are probably illusions. Pox takes out the Goblins with his bow and a bunch of light hit Defy Dangers has us simultaneously stranded in the midst of the parade as Pox activates two of the "illusions" against us. Rudiger manages to take them out but not before being mind clamped by some weird force that keeps telling him to attack his friends. As his friends attempt to lasso him out of the parade with the magic rope, he is triggered to attack them but makes a saving throw and snaps out of it. We eventually safely cross the room.

Next room appears to be a small arena of some sort with obsidian statues. A failed inspection of the room sets off more loud "magic mouths" greeting us and essentially mocking our attempts to determine their purpose. Pox detects no traps around the back side of the seating areas and we all quickly leave this room behind us.

We enter the next room, and find an illusion of a man sitting at a desk writing frantically in a book. Rudiger doesn't trust the room at all, too many books, and is just telling the others this as they hear footsteps approaching from the opposite passage. Siggrun and Rudiger take cover against the wall next to the corridor while Pox ducks behind the desk. To our surprise, a man that looks just like the illusion strolls in and introduces himself as Grunloch. He offers us a partnership and requests our assistance in harnessing the Bloodstone Idol. We're pondering this offer when he proceeds to tell us that the alternative is dying here before him. This made the decision easy for Rudiger who answer with a shield bash to Grunloch's face, "No deal."

The battle is quick and furious with Rudiger and Siggrun bashing the wizard pretty good but Pox was really the hero, launching poisoned arrows from behind the desk. Grunloch got off one spell, sending Siggrun scurrying to the corner in fear but it was short lasting as Grunloch became a pincushion and a chopping block. We ended here.

Dungeon World / Re: Weapon Lengths, come up much?
« on: April 13, 2012, 11:53:03 AM »
Sounds good Sage, thanks for walking me through it!

Dungeon World / Re: Weapon Lengths, come up much?
« on: April 13, 2012, 11:40:58 AM »
Yeah, I don't know specifically about reach tags for creatures, not having looked at their listings. So that's interesting.

And I figured, if you utilize the range tags when they come up in game, it probably happens a lot. I figure there's probably tons of sword vs. dagger fights going down in DW, right? I was just wondering how often folks actually fictionally (which leads to mechanics, either you can attack or you can't) address it.

So basically it should be treated just like another obstacle or threat, to be utilized by the GM to make the characters lives exciting. Would you feel comfortable suggesting that, when different reached weapons are in play, that the GM utilize positioning as a soft move to set up that obstacle?

Dungeon World / Re: Weapon Lengths, come up much?
« on: April 13, 2012, 10:58:47 AM »
Okay sage, looks like its far more prevalent for you than I'd anticipated. Isn't it weird though that you're constantly (and arbitrarily) having to adjudicate when the fiction has nullified someones weapon length. Like I said, I dont' have a ton of medieval combat knowledge but I'd expect that weapon length advantage would be a very fleeting thing. Occassionally being beneficial but constantly in flux as people chaotically whirl around.

If its just something that can be tossed around in the fiction why mess with it in the rules at all? Like your Ogre example, I'd never guess that because the fighter was inside that the Ogre couldn't attack. I'd just assume that in the melee, if the fighter missed or whatever....Ogre got position on him and BLAM!

So just to be clear, you DO use it to say "Nope, he's got you outside your Hack and Slash yet"? If so, they just fictionally maneuver back into range? Does that create a Defy Danger situation that otherwise wouldn't have existed without Ranges?

Dungeon World / Weapon Lengths, come up much?
« on: April 13, 2012, 09:51:19 AM »
Weapon Lengths feel a little strange to me in Basic. Combat strives to be very loose and abstract but for some reason Weapon Lengths feels like it wants to get crunchier. Does this come up in your abstract fiction very much in play? I really don't have a good idea on how to use them. I certainly don't know enough about medieval combat to presume to know when certain weapons are unusable in combat.

So is it just a fiction thing and occassionally crops up? If it weren't for having a racial ability (Human Fighter) tied to it I probably wouldn't even think about it much. But tied to a racial bonus like that it gives the impression its maybe more important that I'm imagining. Thoughts?

Dungeon World / Re: Defend Duration
« on: April 11, 2012, 11:59:58 AM »
And there's nothing wrong with just going to the dice on this is there. Defending but need or want to Spout Lore or cast a spell? Do it. Want to go back to defending? Then Defend and reroll the Move. If you fail, yep, whatever you did broke your awareness. If not, cool, back your back in action and braced for defense.


Hey Sage, great example. Could that also be considered a Parley? Obviously the chain has an inherent meaning to the Ogre, possibly his training has taught him that defying the chain means pain. Seems there is some kind of leverage there and the character is using it.

Could go either way?

You're not being obtuse iserith, I keep waffling back and forth between this issue as well throughout the dialogue. It seems to me that sage suggested earlier that perhaps the dodge could be called a Defy Danger and a roll was necessary

Which is why I got caught up on the wording of "acting DESPITE danger". Obviously the dodge is acting purely because of and in relation to the danger. Defy Danger seems to read that its mainly for trying to do something else, perpendicular  to the danger. I'm sort of in mind of Shadow of Yesterday when I think about it like that.

But I like that Sage said it can be used both ways. Honestly, I just think its more exciting if there's a roll involved instead of the player just narrating themselves out of danger. And I guess we should keep in mind that, if it wasn't for the follow up hack and slash move...there'd be no debate here right? If the Fighter was instead dodging to the side and sprinting past the ogre to get to some goal...that's clearly Defy Danger. Right? There's something about the follow up attack/hack-and-slash that's making the issue squishy for me though.

Dungeon World / Re: Beta 2 changes, add them to first play?
« on: April 09, 2012, 09:21:06 PM »
Definitely, thanks Noofy. I'm actually crossing the threshhold of information exposure now to where things are starting to click more. I was really hoping to be able to provide more feedback to Adam and Sage on how it all reads to someone completely from the outside with no AW world exposure. But I've already spent enough time discussing on here and asking questions and peaking at Beta updates that the fog is clearing a bit. But the down side is now I'm exposed so I can't give virgin feedback now! Blast!

But to your specific topic, yeah, I can see the GM's moves in within all the possibilities now. I still think it would have helped me to actually read the Bloodstone Idol, seeing the various dangers and the moves associated with them. Just seeing the breadth of narrative choices would have made it easier to grasp I think instead of just thinking about it in the abstract.

One of the moves that I really really like, in theory mind you, is tell them the consequences and ask. Its pretty much a "Yes, but...", reminding GMs to let the players go for stuff...even if there's no move there, don't shut it down but build on it. I think its the perfect answer to the scene in the example of the character beseeching the king without leverage. No chance at parley. But a perfect opportunity to let them charry the fiction and complicate the hell out of stuff at the same time. All of the moves are subtle reminders, well not even reminders so much as just requirements, that say do this thing and make it important.

I like that.

Okay,thanks for the hand holding everyone I think I'm cleared up now. If I'm reading you right Sage, to my original question in the heading...its both. Or can be both. And my assumption about ignoring a threat can be possible too. If we all agreed that it was possible in teh fiction to take the blow but simultaneously finish the ritual then no need for a Deny Danger roll if the wizard chooses that route (thought he's probably paste, tough sacrifice!).

If I can mine this thread a bit further I think I've actually had a breakthru moment too, thanks to the post by Aaron. As I read through the Basic and sort of thought ahead about potential hicccups, I was sort of imagining that there's a lot of stuff that could be just left up to GM fiat since no moves would be tied to it. For example, most of the thiefy stuff that you think about from D&D like sneaking up on people, hiding, climbing, etc. At first blush I thought, hmmm, I guess all that stuff is just handled narratively.

But now, thanks to Aaron's quoted passage, I think most of this stuff is probably going to fall under a Defy Danger situation right? If the thief is sneaking to get the drop on someone, there's actually danger there right? Being detected is the danger. So we roll for that. Same for climbing or even just trying to hide from something. Being spotted is the danger I guess, so we roll for that.

These were all situations that in my mind I was thinking, man, would be nice if there was a roll for that. That passage clears that up. There is a roll for it. Defy Danger. Thanks guys, this has been enormously helpful.

Same here probably. You go ahead and take first watch though in case I punk out and fall asleep anyway.

Damn you iserith!! You've just turned it back into my original question! And here I thought I was free and clear.

Yeah, its the Golden Opportunity of having a threat ignored thats tripping me up when I try to put it all together with Defy Danger.

Got ya. Thanks iserith.

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