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Messages - Aetius

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Glad to be helpful ^^

Any tip or insight on our doubts, from Vincent or someone else?

It was a sunny and hot afternoon and we sit down, at the end of a convention,between the fumes of lard-fried pork filled with pig meat, to play Dark Age. International crew, Italian and German, so nobody was speaking his mothertongue and we were all males, Moreno Roncucci, Francesco Berni, Matteo Casali, Tim Franzke and myself. Moreno didn't stay until the end.
We decided to go for a traditionally MC-ed game, mostly out of fear, and because I was more than willing to MCing.

The game has been... insightful.
I've felt like different muscle stretching than the one I usually use in PbtA games. Maybe it was the setting and the fiction that were my bread and butter so I was able to immerse in it fully without effort, or maybe something else.
The Right moves are majestically thematic and effective. They allow you to glue your game to the setting, to the thematic choices and allow for a quicker snowball effect than before. Now literally whatever you do has mechanic and fictional consequences.

The playtest package has a lot of stuff in it, a lot of paper. Next time I'm going to remember to print the Holdings and Households sheet behind the character sheet, and maybe organize all the material I'll need in a small binder. In fifteen minutes we had the table full of slips of papers, maps, people details and so on. That's not necessarly a bad stuff, I like to play with paper, reorganize it, allow it to form patterns, but I need a way to sort it.
And to print several copies of the People Creation sheet.

Stronghold creation has been a blast. On the long side, but a really cool way to brainstorm and have the collective creative juices starting run. Since just talking would had slowed too much (Italians, am I right?), I often ask to do thing like choosing one option each, or cross out an option each.
It went fairly smoothy and we came out with the fortress of Wassershild (because you always have to exploit the German guy for cool names), basically a fortified raiding post strategically located at the center of a bay, connected to the mainland only by a tidal bridge.

The only doubt I have is in the What does its armory include section. Now that I'm reviewing it it seems clear that if you don't mark something it has 10 pieces, if you mark once it has 20 and if you mark twice it has 60. Am I correct? It wasn't very clear, at the table.

Another little difficulty has been to explain the concept of Household. It was clear to me (but, again, I studied these things most of my adult life, so I probably am biased) how members of a War Order could come from 16 different "families" and the concentric relationships these kind of things mean, but I had some hard time explaining it to the players.

Anyway between now and my work detailing the other people around during characters creation, we came out with the Sea-Devils, a christian(ish) warrior order/band of riders, menacing a trading town part of a bigger system of "roman/barbaric" towns and warring with a ragtag army of small tribes and clan reunited under the whip of an old enemy of their leaders, the mysterious Seleukos.

We used all the kinds of People Sheets, and I found the one with the Notables list at the bottom the most useful, but what I really need is a sheet listing the options. Creating People hase been fun and creative, but it risks to become an endevour and to stop the game too often. Having to circle the chosen options instead of writing them would be better and quicker.

The booklets have been presented only by a slightly dramatic reading of the verses, and it was very effective. Only Moreno choose to be a Sea Devil, the War Champion of the Sea Devils actually, but the other created three more people. The Troll Slayer was a woman coming from a group of clans in the far north, devoted to monster-slaying, the Dragon Herald came from a pagan village near the territory of the Sea Devil and the Paesant Beauty was a sort of indentured servant coming from a People that styled themselves as the descendants of the Kings of Old.

In the meanwhile I created three more cultures: two People to colour up my ragtag army, and a more civilized People to populate the town. Everything had a disctinctive German/Celtic/Nordic feeling, so I gave the enemy of the Sea Devils the most south-oriental name in the list, Seleukos, because I'm that cool :-P

A lot of cultures in play, a lot of differences and variations. It was very, very good. In a few minutes I had all the materials, from myself and the other player, to depict a really divise world, a colorful, varied and shifting world. I didn't take a big effort on my part: with the help of everyone I had a lot of different details, idea and broadly-but-effectively characterized cultures in play.
That's part of what I lacked in Apocalypse World, and it works very, very well.

I loved the season moves. Some of the fought, some of them prepared for the big fight incoming, the Dragon Herald and the Troll Slayed spent the Summer by celebrating with their People, gaining the Right to Enchant Someone or Something and the Right to a Magic Weapon.
Another doubt. Can anyone perform Enchantments or only those who have such Right?

We played and I really pushed for that big battle that you need, with Seleukos coming to "make peace", in an obvious rouse tohave the Sea Devils open the gates of Wassershild.

I had some indecisions on when shift from personal moves to war moves, since at least two strong personal champions where in play. The War Champion and the Troll Slayer personally attacked Seleukos' army (they were advancing on a very small tidal bridge, it wasn't totally unreasonable) and they did things like jumping over a shieldwall and beign captured. I was a little in doubt if allowing them those things or not, and if to activate Jump Into Action (because they were literally doing that), Join them in Personal Combat when they attacked the leader of the company (even if he was surrounded by is men) or call for the Battle Moves and rise the camera above personal level immediatly.
I suppose I need more experience with this kind of things. Again, it feels different from the other Apocalypse Games, I'm again on a learning curve (thank you! I needed this!).

Creating the war company was a little confusing. Not difficult per se, but there was a lot of things to move, write down, consider. I really would have needed to call a little pause in the game to do the contability stuff, but I suppose that it is another of those experience things. It's quite linear, after all, just... full of things.
Next time I'll just stop and take the opportunity to ask questions about the aspects of the War Band(s) I'm going to detail.

The only real doubt I have is on the opportunity to use the When Coming Under Attack move. The Sea Devils were lead by the Paesant Beauty, of course, but the other warband was lead by Seleukos, an NPC, and hadn't any PC in it. I rolled the dice, as the MC, because I felt that the battle would have been incomplete without the Coming Under Attack move. Was I right? It felt weird to roll dice as an MC.

When I created Seleukos' warband I was afraid I was going too far There was something like 60 people, with shieldwalls (the town joined the raiding army, out of fear), bows and cavalry, against less than 20 people lightly armed with bows and polearms.
I thought I was about to witness Seleukos trash the ground with the Sea Devils' collective ass without breaking a sweat.

I was totally wrong.

The rules for battles are wonderful and deceptive. Following them the players had the full opportunity to strike in a tactically significative way, I had the opportunity to foster new interesting twists in the narrative killing the old Sea Devils chief and realized that having stone walls surrounding your houses, reachable only by the smallest istmus is really something in this game. The fictional descriptions flowed seamlessly into values and numbers and gave us a result totally plausible and, at the same time, very exciting: the Sea Devils bloodied Seleukos' ragtag army, loose some important man but were able to defend themselves mostly tanks to their absolute advantage position.

I was surprised and delighted by that.

Things happened alongside and immediatly after the battle. The Troll Slayer slaughtered Seleukos magically-protected ass, the Dragon Herald begun some intricate religious plot while the Paesant Beauty tried to keep the Sea Devils together after the death of their leader.

It hasn't been a blasting game (good, quite fun, not memorable), we were tired and inexperienced, but it carried the promises of great games to come. I've learned something on how to present it next time, on how organize myslef to play it and I have the sensation that it will really, really change the way I look at Apocalypse games.

Thank you.

Apocalypse World / Re: The sleeping Gunlugger and the shitty knife.
« on: November 25, 2011, 07:10:38 PM »
Don't forget about reading a situation. Can Fifi read the situation even though she's unconscious? Maybe! Sometimes I can, when I'm sleeping in real life, can't you?

Also, the chart in the harm chapter that lists falling damage and getting hit by a truck clearly allows you to establish 6-harm for a knife in the eye, if you want to.

Hell, the existence of s-harm and psi-harm clearly allow you to invent knife-in-the-eye-harm and say that it's instantly fatal, if you decide that's the best thing to do.

The game's rules can deal with murderous PvP, but you as the MC have to really make a million judgment calls, case by case by case. Better to think about all the different ways you can handle it than to try to arrive at one unified way you should handle it. There is no such!

Thank you, Vincent.

I understand what you say in the last part of your post and the difficulties to generalize. I just needed that last bit of... let's say "confirmation" to defenetively known how far I can go ^^

Apocalypse World / Re: The sleeping Gunlugger and the shitty knife.
« on: November 12, 2011, 08:32:46 PM »
If I were the MC, when Rouge stabbed at Fifi, I would say, "OK, Rouge, that's going Aggro on Fifi, and it seems to me that what you want him to do is, die with his own knife through his eye. Cool?" And, if Fifi's player saw this as a good death scene for his character, he would cave. I see the going aggro move as ideal when one character has the drop on another, as with here.


Ok, this is how going aggro normally works ^^ Fifi would choose between death and harm, and oviusly he would choose harm... unless the player want to kill the character for whatever reason.

I specifically said, in my example, that Fifi is totally defensless. Defensless in "this is not even a move, just stab it", and this has been obtained through a couple or four moves by Rouge.

I used the example to clarify the situation, but the core of my question could be: sometimes fictional situation in which a character, even a PC, is just killed, regardless of the harm for the weapon, could arise.
How to use the rules in these situations?

I can see how to go from rules to fiction ("You die for a knife wound, so I think the kinife enter in your eye, puncturing the brain"), but sometimes I found difficult to do vice versa (Rouge secured herself, throught moves like seduce and manipulate, or maybe an arresting Skinner, the possibility to stab Fifi in the eye and puncture the brain. I apply the 2harm damage of the knife even if Fifi should be "realistically" dead?)

Apocalypse World / Re: The sleeping Gunlugger and the shitty knife.
« on: November 12, 2011, 10:25:29 AM »
I meant "in the know" in the sense of the actual consequences, as in, "Fifi, you know that if Rouge gets you completely incapacitated, you will *DIE* when she knifes you, regardless of the actual Harm rules?"

Fifi's player: "Yeah, I know, I played and lost... *sigh* Hand me the playbooks."


Fifi's player: "WTF?  That knife is only 2-harm and I'll just take a debility if I go past 9:00, how the hell can she just kill me?!"

That kind of "in the know", since you are changing the rules of the game at that moment, and it's a pretty big moment!

Absolutely. I strongly belive in openess and honesty at the table. I'll expect by Rouge player, if the second situation arises, to stand back graciously, if Fifi's player is really surprised.
But I would made sure that ALL at the table know ALL the rules beforehand.

Me, I want to see how Fifi survives going around with no voice after Rouge left him for dead with a cut throat...  *laugh*

Mee too. This is why I prefer number 3 ^^

Apocalypse World / Re: The sleeping Gunlugger and the shitty knife.
« on: November 12, 2011, 10:03:48 AM »
Well... I considered specifically that Fifi's player had got a lot of possibilities to interfere with Rouge moves. The cards are all on the table, so... I don't think I'm denying anything to him. He played the game and... well... lost it.
I'm sorry, but shit happens and he could not say that this was unexpected ;-)

On the other hand I'm totally cool with all the player "in the known". I failed to mention this particular because I gave it for granted. All what is happening is happening at the same table, I don't run "separate session" for anyone XD

Apocalypse World / Re: The sleeping Gunlugger and the shitty knife.
« on: November 12, 2011, 09:42:10 AM »
Oh, well... I'm ok even with 2. Fifi had got a lot of possibility to avoid this situation before, so I would not feel an injustice: you played the game, Fifi, and you lost to Rouge. Goodbye Fifi.

It's less elegant, in my opinion, than 3 but... I can live with this (Fifi cannot XD).

Apocalypse World / Re: Seizing by force and taking definite hold
« on: November 12, 2011, 08:45:40 AM »
I realized that the discourse over going aggro and killing someone with weapons that normally would not do could be off topic in this thread.
I'd like to continue it here

Apocalypse World / The sleeping Gunlugger and the shitty knife.
« on: November 12, 2011, 08:45:24 AM »
Hi to everybody.

I would like to continue more deeply the discourse started here on variations for weapons in particular situations.
I'm talking especially about this post of mine and the answer by gregorpogor.

Let's imagine this situation.

Fifi the Gunlugger is sleeping beside Rouge the Battlebabe. Rouge went out of her way to put Fifi out of the game. She fought to acquire a strong narcotic, she seduced him into drink it, she fucked with him all night.
The point here is: Fifi the Gunlugger is down, defenitively by means of several moves from Rouge. Fifi's player has got plenty of possibilities to interfere and whatnot, bun now he's out.

Now Rouge takes his faithful knife and thrusts through Fifi's right eye, down, into the brain.

If you don't like this, let's say she cut his troath, or paints the bed red with his brain shooting her 9mm. It works even with a granade in his as... mouth. Basically she does something to proof-kill him: no human being could survive this.

I think this isn't even a move, a going aggro. Fifi is out. Rouge does it, stop.

But, really, Rouge's knife is only 2harm (and so is the 9mm), and usually the mighty Gunlugger can just shake off this ridicolous damage!
But... in the fiction it happened! Fifi got his brain pierced. He is, basically, dead.

How can I resolve this situation?
I've got three hypotesis running in my head.

1) 2harm is 2harm. If you want to kill Fifi you've got to repetedly stab his brain, at least 3 times.
2) Fifi's dead. No debilities, nothing. Goodbye Fifi.
3) Fifi's countodwn clock goes instantly to 12.00. Now... are we talking about debilities?

I must be frank: i like the first one the least and the third the most.
The first one is... strange. Even in a Hollywood movie it would be ridicoulus to see someone stabbed three times throught the eye before dieing.
The last one is... elegant, I believe. Ad Gregpogor said countdown are descriptive and prescritive. If something happens to send me at 12.00... I go at 12.00.

What do you think?
I'd like very much an answer from Vincent: what is "kosher" for you? But, please, I'll like also to hear different opinions and reasoning on this matter.

Apocalypse World / Re: Seizing by force and taking definite hold
« on: November 11, 2011, 03:44:52 AM »
Yeah, I think this is the "correct" answer because there is a strong back-and-forth between fiction and system ^^
I will leave a beat too... but Snake Eyes' life is now mine and this is a fact. I think (and this is just theory, not actual play, so this coul be a logical jump a little too far) I could certainly allow a Manipulate, to convince me to do something else of Snake Eyes' life ("Please, don't kill me, I can tell you where Harridan is!") but defenitively not another try at violence... at least if Snake Eyes cannot alter the fiction in a significant way while I've got his life in my hand and without contradict my success.

Mr. D. Vincent, are you cool with this?
Someone elso got something to add?

Apocalypse World / Re: Seizing by force and taking definite hold
« on: November 11, 2011, 02:47:11 AM »
sorry, did a mess.

Apocalypse World / Re: Seizing by force and taking definite hold
« on: November 11, 2011, 02:45:36 AM »
Yep, that's it... maybe 2-harm, and definitely AP, Snake Eyes makes a Harm move and gets asked "What do you do?"

But now you're denying the full benefit of my move.
I've taken definitive hold of it, I did my usual damage, I roll my dice, he interfered and at the end... I've taken definitive hold of his life.

Now we're out of the conflict, the dice are still, and I've Snake Eyes' life in my hand. Whot do I do? I cut his throat. Must I cut it repetitively until the 1-2damage of the knife fill his countdown clock (it's like cutting turkey! XD) or now I've really got hold on his life and can simply end it?

The way I would play this is sending Snake Eyes straight to 12.00 on his countdown clock and then I'll allow him to take a debility, so we can have a coherent fiction: I'm in control of his life, I cut his throat (withouth chopping like I'm cutting some chicken), no interference in this, I already have the control of his life, I already won that conflict,  I left him for death and THEN he could take a debility a come back... maybe as a Faceless XD

Let's see this other situation:

Ruby the Skinner got Fifi the Gunlugger sleeping in her bed. She worked for it. She spent a whole session trying to obtain a powerful narcotic from the Maestro d', she seduce Fifi to fuck with her, she seduced him to drink the spiked wine and now Fifi is sleeping, naked and heavly drugged, beside her.
Ruby drives a rusty spike through his eye.
What do I do?
It's going aggro? It's a "fuck up you got a lot of possibility to avoid this, you are dead (but take a debility if you want)" situation? Is something else?

EDIT: Sorry, crosspost with Moreno.

Apocalypse World / Re: Seizing by force and taking definite hold
« on: November 10, 2011, 04:55:39 PM »
A little clarification, Vincent (or anyone else), if I can.

Let's say I HAD taken definitive hold of the life of Snake Eyes the Chopper.

We fought, we shot each other, the dice rolled for a reciprocal Seize by Force and now all is still with a 7-9 for me and a failure for him. I choose to take little harm and to take definitive hold on his life.

In the fiction I'm now kneeling on a defensless Snake Eyes, I take out my knife and cut his throat.

He dies? I do a move? I do the 1harm of the knife?

Apocalypse World / A non-Angel healing
« on: February 16, 2011, 03:40:13 PM »
Good Apoclaypse to all.

A simple question buzz in my head since my first AW session: how do you handle the healing, even the basic first-aid by a non-Angel character?

My Faceless, Meat, and my fiancée's Quarantine, Jenny, were helping a poor boy, Rum, which was shot.
"His heart stops. He's dead" said the MC. "No, wait!" I screamed, "I try a crude reanimation, hitting hard his chest! Beat, bastard, beat! "

It was obvious to us to roll "Act under fire", the fire being the fading of poor Rum's life.
I succeded, we managed to keep him barely alive (no real healing on the countdown clock: he was stabile at a inch from death) and the only solution was to hibernate him in Quarantine's vault.

All this was wonderfully coherent in fiction, but I marvel: is correct to handle healing in this way?

If I use an Angel kit to stabilize someone I must spend it to have a +1 to the roll, but Meat the Faceless, just with his fist, take a +2.
Isn't this going to strip the angel kits (and the Angel) of part of their utility?

Also, you give acces to angel kit to everyone or reserve it for Angels or moves like "prepare to the inevitable"?
If everyone can access and use kits like an Angel isn't he a little... dull?

Apocalypse World / Re: Every Hocus needs his Holy Book
« on: February 01, 2011, 06:15:46 AM »
Magnificent!  Are you Italian?  I saw a similar treatment of Dogs in the Vineyard when I was in Lucca...

That was the deluxe edition from Narrattiva ^^

This is its My Life With Master equivalent

Of the latter exist also a giant edition, identical to the "standard" deluxe and perfectly functional but... 2 meters high!

And, by the way, this is the italian edition of Montsegur 1244:

Rohoe's creation are still superior: they've got that hand-mande, unique flavour that is absolutely wonderful.
I don't think that the Savyhead version is very pratical, but... it's so cool it isn't a real problem, right? ;-)

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