[Inspired by "Skinner effectiveness"] Your experience with the Driver

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Ebok

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Re: [Inspired by "Skinner effectiveness"] Your experience with the Driver
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2017, 09:31:06 PM »
If I were to give a Driver a "thing" I'd probably focus away the cars and give him instead a "Name". Play into Reputation, let them use their name like currency. Cause, you know. Some people, when the world goes to hell just fly on by and everyone else is just left going. Cool.

Re: [Inspired by "Skinner effectiveness"] Your experience with the Driver
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2017, 07:18:39 AM »


I still think freedom isn't the Driver's "thing" or else the Driver's freedom wouldn't be a hindrance from the sex move. Freedom should be revelatory, not anxiety-ridden. Or maybe it should have the freedom to be either, but the Driver playbook makes your interpretation of freedom almost obligatory.

The Driver is Driven: Is she charging into danger, or running from herself?   :)

I'll have to play as a Driver in the next game. I've got one in my heavily influenced Utopia game, but that's not close enough mechanically for true comparisons. That player ended up using the environment a lot though, most notably by using his knightrider like bike to catch a monorail train that was falling down the outside of a skyscraper, and a second time where he used a mammoth pileup (caused by the Gunlugger) as a ramp to launch himself, snagging a wrecked bus and swinging it into the warlord firing grenades at them before crashing into a skyscraper himself.

I think that's maybe it. More than other playbooks, the Driver brings a sense of spectacle. If they want to be effective, they need to escalate, accelerate, make the jumps, stunts and explosions bigger until the others are left behind. They need to bring the situation up to their level and then beat everyone.

Re: [Inspired by "Skinner effectiveness"] Your experience with the Driver
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2017, 07:55:58 PM »
What I meant is, feel free to hate it, hack the old one back, etc. ...
So like what you want, hate what you want. ...
I didn't say I hated it, I said the 2nd edition version seems like it is missing something. It starts out weaker comparatively then the other playbooks but the Driver no longer has a starting move that gives him a unique edge when he's in a vehicle.

Driver has plenty of things, and if you and your player cannot figure out what he wants his to be, then, maybe a brain storming session is due.
Have you not read what I've been typing? We're not trying to figure out what his character wants to be, we can't figure out why the Driver seems to start as a lesser playbook than the rest. There is no "thing" or gimmick that is unique to the Driver. If the Driver's specialty is being mercurial and separate then why is it called the Driver instead of the Loner.
(Also, I told my player to just take an extra Driver move of his choice to balance out that half the other players have vehicles too)

If I were to give a Driver a "thing" I'd probably focus away the cars and give him instead a "Name".
This is the most ridiculous statement. I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying because you love the playbook too much to really have enough emotional distance from my criticism of the playbook.
 
The Savvyhead starts with a workspace
The Maestro d' starts with an establishment
The Hardholder starts with a hold
etc.
The Driver starts with a car
BUT when every playbook can potentially start with a car that no longer becomes unique, and they are no longer special. The Driver has lost their "thing," their gimmick, their specialty.
Looking for a playbook? Check out my page!
http://nerdwerds.blogspot.com/2012/12/all-of-playbooks.html

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DWeird

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Re: [Inspired by "Skinner effectiveness"] Your experience with the Driver
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2017, 08:28:39 PM »
I think that's maybe it. More than other playbooks, the Driver brings a sense of spectacle.

Sounds about right. Most of my favorite memories with the Driver have something to do with the perverse incentives created by Daredevil.


So, Paul - we can agree it's not the mobility itself that's a problem for you, right?

I think "I have a cool car and I don't like being tied down" is pretty much spot on. Avoiding relationships is itself a pretty clear and thematic relationship dynamic - it's just that it runs counter to the easiest way a MC can have fun with players (sticking an NPC between two PCs). Drivers don't *need* to be tied down, which is exactly the problem if you're focusing on a small cast of interlinked, localized threats - fucker can tear right out of that web no problem.

Of all the threats in the book, Drivers are most likely to deal with terrain, landscapes, and vehicles - all the things that are least like persons and so the hardest to get delectable drama juice out of. Not that I ever consciously tried, but you could explicitly try to triangle that stuff out anyway. Roads are cramped things where cattle and people live, good asphalt is being torn right up as building material, a part you need for repairs is in Dremmer's bastard rig. A slightly roundabout way of learning about the communities of the world - what threats they're facing, what they're doing to deal, what they're not doing and why.

Re: [Inspired by "Skinner effectiveness"] Your experience with the Driver
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2017, 12:13:38 AM »
Interesting!

I appreciate that answer, and I'll think on it.

For what it's worth, though, I'm not convinced. It sounds like the "X-factor" of a "cool car" is basically the selling point here, which is... I suppose it's neat, but it's not that appealing to ME.

Like I said, though, I'll let it marinate a bit.

I appreciate the role of a Driver when it comes to a team traveling in a vehicle (like in Firefly), but otherwise I feel like it needs something more for it to work for me. Like, why does the Driver need to drive so bad?

Anyone have a different experience with the Driver, whether good or bad?

Re: [Inspired by "Skinner effectiveness"] Your experience with the Driver
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2017, 03:34:54 PM »
Apart from the Driver's sex move, there is nothing inherently "loner" or "I don't like being tied down" in the Driver playbook. If a Driver never has sex, they can be committed to anything and anyone they choose.
Looking for a playbook? Check out my page!
http://nerdwerds.blogspot.com/2012/12/all-of-playbooks.html

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Arvid

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Re: [Inspired by "Skinner effectiveness"] Your experience with the Driver
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2017, 08:26:00 AM »
In our current game, one player is The News, so there's a lot of radio, car radio etc. That really turned me on to the driver more than anything, the idea of night time driving, listening to the radio.

I think half the appeal for me is the driving and the car, and the other half is just being able to do whatever I want, go wherever I want. I imagine saying to the MC "I'm driving west" "Why?" "I'll figure it out on the way", and then having my own personal story, one that I decide who gets to tag along with.

Weird, I guess. What's the fun in running away from other players' interesting scenes?

I'd have to play to find out, I guess.

Maybe Bonefeel should be a Driver move.

Re: [Inspired by "Skinner effectiveness"] Your experience with the Driver
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2017, 02:47:15 PM »
Maybe Bonefeel should be a Driver move.

Oh, man! That makes a ton of sense.

(I also think it might be why it was included in the Savvyhead's list of moves, as well. You have a character who is easy to relegate to their own, private business... put in a move to give the group an excuse to involve them - or involve themselves - in the action.)

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Spwack

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Re: [Inspired by "Skinner effectiveness"] Your experience with the Driver
« Reply #23 on: July 31, 2017, 08:52:36 AM »
That would be the same reason why the Driver has Reputation: To get them to meet new people.

In my opinion, there's one itty bitty little problem with the Driver - everyone else's cars are the same. Have you noticed that when other playbooks get a workspace, hardhold, or gang of their own (through improvements or during play) they use different rules than the Savvyhead/Hardholder/Chopper?

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Ebok

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Re: [Inspired by "Skinner effectiveness"] Your experience with the Driver
« Reply #24 on: July 31, 2017, 06:48:25 PM »
That's really incredibly easy to fix. I also mentioned something along those lines already.

I normally ask a driver to do one additional thing when they get in a new vehicle. Tell me whether it's Cool, Hot, Weird, or Hard. That is, take that truck and make it harder cause the driver is inside. Take that sports car and make it hotter. Take that bike and make it cooler. Take that crazy ass moving tech pile and make it weirder.

It's a thing, it's easy to do.

Re: [Inspired by "Skinner effectiveness"] Your experience with the Driver
« Reply #25 on: July 31, 2017, 08:34:16 PM »
That's pretty interesting, Ebok.

I like the implications that the Driver is so in tune with machinery that each car has a "personality" to them. "Normal" people are blind to this - they just see machines.

I could see it having a mechanical benefit, too: perhaps this sense of insight allows the Driver to get a bonus to "playing to the vehicle's nature".

The most obvious thing would be a simple +1 to rolling that stat when in the vehicle. That would create a "softer" version of the 1st Ed Driver's rules, where the Driver doesn't have to lose 1 from each stat, but just 1 from each stat *line*, and the flexibility that comes from being able to switch vehicles for the appropriate benefit.

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Ebok

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Re: [Inspired by "Skinner effectiveness"] Your experience with the Driver
« Reply #26 on: August 01, 2017, 01:38:44 AM »
You could carry a mechanical benefit. But I wouldn't do that (thought about it though). Instead I use that tag in the opposite way I use vulnerabilities. When I present opportunities, a hot car will draw people in, or help someone stand out, or allow actually INSPIRE the narrative reaction in everyone else. Hop into a Hard dump-truck, and we're talking knocking through walls and crushing over scenery. People seeing it coming at them are going to see the vehicle being fuck hard as hell. Same with cool, inspire the cool options and cool reactions. Weird is a bit more touch and go, and I figure that just takes the drivers personality and quirks and amplifies them through the vehicle. 

That could also all be represented by +1 to that stat, but in play, the mechanical benefit was just overkill to the fact I was barfing forth those opportunities anyway.

Re: [Inspired by "Skinner effectiveness"] Your experience with the Driver
« Reply #27 on: August 01, 2017, 03:57:51 PM »
Keep in mind that vehicles have threat types now (page 113).
Maybe the driver can see the type of threat it is? or determines it?
Looking for a playbook? Check out my page!
http://nerdwerds.blogspot.com/2012/12/all-of-playbooks.html

Re: [Inspired by "Skinner effectiveness"] Your experience with the Driver
« Reply #28 on: August 01, 2017, 06:26:51 PM »
Ah! That's an interesting take on it. I like it!

Re: [Inspired by "Skinner effectiveness"] Your experience with the Driver
« Reply #29 on: August 29, 2017, 12:19:31 PM »
Sorry to revive this after a month, but I'm an ego manic and wanted to add my thoughts.

I think Ebok's right. The car is still the driver's 'thing'. While it's true other character's can now get vehicles, perhaps a little too easy, it doesn't take away from the driver as much as you think. It's like guns are the gunlugger's 'thing', yet other characters have easy access to guns.

The driver's simply has a better car, and/or can use it better. Moves like Combat Driver, Daredevil, and just having a high cool stat really let the driver shine when vehicle fights are in play. If anything, having a lot of other vehicles in play just allows you to reflect on how shit hot a driver is behind the wheel.

Sure, the player can choose not to pick these moves, but that's still no different than the gunlugger not choosing AP ammo or NTBFW, then complaining that his assault rifle isn't a whole lot better than the driver's magnum. Sure the tags give the AR more freedom, but even then an AR can be obtained in game. If the player's not choosing them, that's their prerogative. I wouldn't give them for free, but I might push the associated moves a bit so they'll want them next improvement.

For what it's worth, and it maybe too late for nerdwerds's game, I think the fact the diver can choose to plant and still be relevant is more of a sign of improvement and a better playbook from 1e. There's also a lot of driving that can be done, even in a very confined game. An NPC wants someone to drive some sensitive cargo on the outskirts of town to the other side. They've come to the driver because they have a reputation of being a shit hot driver. Plenty of opportunities for road wars without taking the character miles from everyone else.

I also think you should look at the "get with the MC" clause for other character's starting with vehicles carries some weight. The vehicle creating rules say 1-2 strengths and 1-2 weaknesses. It's a free thing, it's totally not being a dick to be stricter on the gunlugger, or outright veto certain choices as part of the deal (the Driver can do whatever she wants though) or trade an obligation or some other bargain for it. Be a fan still applies of course. Even with  everyone in roughly equal cars, that's cool. That looks to me like a convoy, which Daredevil specifically mentions. GREAT way to hand the driver some spotlight while having everyone involved in some way.