Gunlugger + grenades = problem

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Spwack

  • 138
Gunlugger + grenades = problem
« on: December 17, 2016, 10:55:16 PM »
Basically, is the above a problem? It isn't even against large groups, she seems to have a hilarious habit of shoving live grenades into people's mouths, then kicking them away to explode. Is this even a problem? It just seems to be an unlimited solution to every problem. I've said "the next time you fail a roll involving grenades, you'll only have three left and need to buy more somehow." Is this fair? I've been using destroyed terrain as a side effect, but it seems to be overshadowing every other weapon/player completely. Is there a rule I've misinterpreted? Thanks

Re: Gunlugger + grenades = problem
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2016, 12:44:15 AM »

Do grenades have the 'unlimited' tag in 2nd edition or something?

I mean, if they have a lot of grenades, they must be getting them from somewhere? Seems interesting enough. These aren't just bullets or knives, after all, someone needs to know what they're doing to make a bunch of grenades.

But, like, 'the Gunlugger is overshadowing everyone else because they're so good at murdering NPCs' is not particularly a problem with grenades. Would it somehow be different if they were shooting everyone with a pistol or something? Because NPCs die from 2 harm just as much as 4, in most circumstances. Shoving a grenade in someone's mouth and then kicking them around seems pretty stylish, if prone to catastrophic error.

Re: Gunlugger + grenades = problem
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2016, 11:56:18 AM »
Few things that may help you . First remember to always be a fan of your player characters . The gun Lugger has picked the playbook that literally comes with "big fuck off guns", his whole deal is how to kill stuff so make sure that you keep letting him do what his playbook is designed forever.

However that said , our jobs as MCs is to keep their life's interesting so here are a few ideas. Partial successes and failures are gonna be your be your best friends here. Remember your moves every single time they use their grenades. Specifically look it "take their stuff away , make them buy and activate their stuff downside .

If he gets a 10+ on his roll then by all means everything works exactly as he wants no problem . He makes a partially success or even better a failure and suddenly you can do some fun things . For example grenades are not infinite and are area messy. Suddenly he is caught in the blast , or he is acting under fire to get the hell out of the way .

Suddenly he looks into is pouch and remembers that is running low , or announce some offscreen badness in that a few minutes later he hears an identical explosion as someone has broken into his house and stolen his box of nades.

Always be a fan first but when it's your turn to make a move , make as hard of a move as you like.

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noclue

  • 609
Re: Gunlugger + grenades = problem
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2016, 01:16:36 PM »
Basically, is the above a problem? It isn't even against large groups, she seems to have a hilarious habit of shoving live grenades into people's mouths, then kicking them away to explode. Is this even a problem? It just seems to be an unlimited solution to every problem. I've said "the next time you fail a roll involving grenades, you'll only have three left and need to buy more somehow." Is this fair? I've been using destroyed terrain as a side effect, but it seems to be overshadowing every other weapon/player completely. Is there a rule I've misinterpreted? Thanks
Why three left? Apocalypse is a game about scarcity. And there are all sorts of dangers messing around with live explosives in a community. Stuff you care about can get blow'd up. Stuff like you.

You seem very nice, but if you're annoyed by players having unlimited hilarious grenades, use your moves to make them less unlimited and less hilarious.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2016, 01:23:11 PM by noclue »
James R.

    "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which can not fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance-that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
     --HERBERT SPENCER

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Ebok

  • 415
Re: Gunlugger + grenades = problem
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2016, 02:34:46 PM »
Unless you're kicking that guy off a building, I find it very hard to believe you're going to anywhere near outside of the blast radius... lol. Take a read up on grenades, see how big of aboom they deliver, ask yourself, What could go wrong here?

Cause let me tell you. A lot could go wrong with solving your problems with grenades. Everything blowing yourself up, to them pulling it back out in time, to someone else crossing the path, to some other type of essential collateral damage, to someone getting their hands on your stockpile of grenades.

Now, I don't think it's a problem at all to for your gunlugger to have infinite or nearly so grenades. But it's your job to make the world seem real. So ask him. Who supplies him with these grenades (do they supply anyone else?), we assume the gunlugger has  a massive crate of these things around where does he keep them all? How many is he carrying on him at any given time? Hold him to that number. But really, it's not the person getting blow up that matters at all in this circumstance. What do the people who have to clean it up say? What do the people that loved that person say? Who are his friends? What decent humans are left in the area that finds his "act" stomache turning and grotesque? What do they do about it? Who tries to exclude the Gunlugger? Who tries to keep away from him? Who wont do business with him? Will he kill someone for disrespecting him when he is disrespecting everyone constantly? What will other people say to that.

Honestly, grenades sound like they're you best friend. On a miss, you have so many OHSHITS to deal with. You've got a nice sucker someone move to handling (not if he kills the dude, they're gone) the other things that go wrong. You've got a guy that is effecting everyone, permanently and loudly scarring the landscape. If your player is bringing all the PostApoc himself, you can try to bring some of the human back through your npcs as a way to make the world feel real and keep things interesting. You've got stockpiles of grenades somewhere, which is a big deal. I've hit my group with grenades a few times (and they're definitely ap), and every time it changes everything. If there are ways to get basically massive quantities of the stuff, the players might see them in circulation too.

So to reiterate.

1. Let your Gunlugger kill his foes with style
2. Don't just take his stuff away, there are variations of this that are more fun.
3. Learn about the Supply chain (generating badness?)
4. Learn about the Stockpile (a place where he's vulnerable)
5. Think about what could go wrong, push rolls when dealing with excessive explosives.
6. Think about the mess, make it matter.
7. Think about how people feel when they or their children see this, or come across it later.
8. Think about the radius of death, who/what might get caught up inside, revealed, or pushed out?
9. Think about those dead, or those that want to bury them.
10. Think about what this says about the people he associates with, make it matter.
11. Think about the people that might want to hire the gunlugger for being... So so so publicly violent.

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noclue

  • 609
Re: Gunlugger + grenades = problem
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2016, 02:40:59 PM »
If my GM gave me an infinite supply of grenades, I would immediately blow the entire thing sky high. Just saying.
James R.

    "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which can not fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance-that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
     --HERBERT SPENCER

Re: Gunlugger + grenades = problem
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2016, 03:05:09 PM »
A basic principle of AW is that you, as MC, should be a "fan of the PCs". This means that someone who chooses to be the Gunlugger, and carries around grenades, should find opportunities to blow his enemies sky high: that's what the character is *about*.

Don't look for ways to limit the behaviour; rather, look to see what the *consequences* are, and what the *costs* are.

Costs? It's been covered very well by others so far. Where do the grenades come from? How does the Gunlugger get them? Will someone still be willing to sell him grenades if he's using them indiscriminately?

Consequences can be direct or indirect. As direct consequences, imagine what kind of damage grenades can do. Who or what is hurt or damaged, against the character's intentions? Imagine blowing up the stronghold of your enemies to find the corpses of children amidst carefully stockpiled food and artwork from the Golden Age, all now ruined. Do they ever malfunction? Fail to go off? Or go off accidentally? Does the PC need to make sure they aren't exposed to particular conditions, like humidity or heat, or weird maelstrom psychic energy fields? Does the Brainer's pain wave relay set off explosives? Do they have fuses which are all losing their charge, and need to be replaced by someone skilled and knowledgeable?

Indirect consequences can be much more interesting:

I'd ask myself if the maelstrom has any particular desires or plans for explosives. Let's say the player keeps finding supplies of them. Could the maelstrom be at work here? Why do they always fall into his hands?

What if every time explosions take place, a certain theme is reinforced? Something is revealed, destroyed, or someone's attention is drawn? If you have some kind of mythology around this kind of thing in your game, this could be a fun opportunity to bring that in.

More naturally, of course, you should consider what this all looks like to your various NPCs. What do they think of a madman blowing everything up? Will they adore and worship him? Demand that he protects the weak? Shower him with riches in exchange for doing something truly stomach-churning? Ask him to emancipate the slaves?

Or will they be terrified, horrified? Start to see him as a villain, and bar him from entering any kind of "civilized" place?

Having his actions attract all the mad, psychotic killers of Apocalypse World, and alienate everyone who is decent or safe or values something human would put him into an interesting position. So would the opposite, where he is heralded as a defender of the weak and expected to solve all their problems.

Lots to explore here!