Advice to deal with some situations and moves

Hello,

We're playing our 5th session of "Doctors of the Apocalypse World" with some friends. Everybody agrees that it's the best game I've ever mastered and the philosophy underlying the Apocalypse Engine solves almost all of the problems I've always dealt as a GM. Thank you Vincent and Meg for your work!

We're still struggling to deal with some situations and how to deal with basic moves. Generally it's ok, but here I would like to improve myself by benefiting from your advices :

Entretoise (we're playing in french), a Brainer and advisor to TumTum, the PC hardholder, has taken Soleil, a little 7-years old girl into its weird protection to open her to the maelstrom. The holding is inhabitated by some extensive polygamic families. Soleil is a member of the "Flag" Clan/family and the Patriarch considers that Soleil has been taken away from them without payment. He hasks TumTum that Soleil is given back to them, or that a payment is made.

Tumtum invites Entretoise and the Patriarch in the common room, and puts Soleil on a table. He asks the two parties to find an agreement, or they will share a half Soleil each, his machete threatening Soleil.

Here is Entretoise's proposal : "You can take Soleil back, but if you take her, you take Boiled-Face too". Boiled-Face is a little girl found in another holding they raided: she cannot move.

So we have a deal like this :
- a deal has to be made
- the PC propose is not "you can have this [interesting thing] in exchange", but "you can have this [burden] in exchange"

The situation is charged. How would deal with this?

Is it wrong that part of me wants the Patriarch to settle for half?

No, it was what I expected, but not what the Patriarch (who is a PC) choose. I decided to handle it with a dice, but had trouble to deal with that situation (only 5th game for us and improving more and more)

Oh, I assumed the Patriarch was an NPC.

In any event, TumTum has leverage. I would have called for a manipulate roll.

This is Manipulate, but you have the goal and the leverage swapped. Entretoise is using Soleil as leverage in exchange for something else he wants (getting rid of Boiled Face).

Is Entretoise a PC or NPC? (ou peut-être PJ/PNJ?)

If PC, what outcome does Entertoise really prefer? Get rid of both girls? If so, JustusGS has it right. If, instead, Entertoise wants to keep Soleil, they need some kind of leverage -- which could be "Soleil lives and I return her to you in two weeks, and here's some barter in the meantime" maybe. 

If NPC, then the move has to be Patriarch's; if Patriarch wants Soleil, he can offer "fine, I'll take Boiled Face off your hands as well," since he believes that's acceptable to Entertoise.

Entertoise is a Brainer.

Entretoise is a PC.

It's more tricky: Entretoise's goal is not to get rid of the girl. His goal is : "I want to keep Soleil under my protection". He doesn't care about the other girl, whatever if he still owns her or give her back.

I considered this a Manipulation roll. I ask "what reason do you give to the Patriarch to convince him". Instead of giving an incentive to the patriarch to accept the request, for instance I asked "do you want to barter this ? You can pay some x-barter", he was to discourage the Patriarch : "no I don't want to give him something, I want him to pay a cost if he wants to take the girl". In my opinion, the Patriarch's view is that Soleil has been taken from him, it's a theft. And now taking back what is his, he has to pay a cost.

The Patriarch is a NPC.

Let me rephrase the situation :

When I ask Entretoise what he's giving as a reason for the Manipulation roll, he tells me "I don't want to give him a carot if accepts my request, I want to give him a stick if he refuses". He doesn't want anything else. But then the move doesn't seem appropriate.

Maybe could I have done a Hard Move as an answer, because he refuses to fullfill the Manipulation roll conditions?

I improvised this situation: The Patriarch felt tricked, as Entretoise was backed by Tumtum, who was claiming an impartial mediation (which he was not). So he let it go "well, keep your girls", then I created him as a Threat and he refused to let his family work for Tumtum when asked to. TumTum reacted by puting a bullet in his head. Now all the family is a threat.

But still, I'm questioning myself to see if any other options could have been done.

No, it was what I expected, but not what the Patriarch (who is a PC)

The Patriarch is a NPC.

/confused

TumTum is helping, so he could roll aid. Manipulate still seems like the move for Entretoise. He doesn't need to give the Patriarch a reason, just the threat. The threat is the leverage. There's only a carrot or stick if the Patriarch is a PC. NPCs have different rules.

Entertoise offered up a "deal" which essentially is take both girls or we kill Soleil.

I definitely still think that was Manipulation. A vague threat of future violence, for example, is Manipulate (as opposed to immediate violence that you can back up, which is Go Aggro). That's definitely a stick, which is just as good leverage as a carrot. You can go a couple of different ways with what exactly the leverage is and what exactly the goal is, but regardless, Entertoise has some leverage he's applying. You could say the leverage is the threat of Soleil's death, and the goal is for Patriarch to take the deal, or the leverage is possession of Soleil and the goal is to get Patriarch to take both girls, or the leverage is that he'll have to take Boiled Face and the goal is to get him to leave both girls and consider the matter settled, but you just need to pick one and roll it.

Edit: But also, your approach seems fine to me. If he was promised an impartial negotiation, and the supposedly neutral third party started taking sides, it makes a lot of sense for him to walk out without even considering the deal.

Quote from: arakn_e on May 11, 2016, 06:43:28 PM

No, it was what I expected, but not what the Patriarch (who is a PC)

Quote from: arakn_e on May 12, 2016, 05:55:42 AM

The Patriarch is a NPC.

/confused

TumTum is helping, so he could roll aid. Manipulate still seems like the move for Entretoise. He doesn't need to give the Patriarch a reason, just the threat. The threat is the leverage. There's only a carrot or stick if the Patriarch is a PC. NPCs have different rules.

Entertoise offered up a "deal" which essentially is take both girls or we kill Soleil.

Patriarch is a NON Player Character, sorry.

Thank you all for your answers, and for highlighting that TumTum could interfere, I'll think of it!

The only thing that looks like leverage to me is that if they don't make a deal, Soleil is going to get cut in half. Purposefully suggesting an unreasonable deal (here take Boiled Face too for literally no reason) is basically threatening to let TumTum kill Soleil.

It's not a very sensible approach to manipulating someone, however, because it gives the Patriarch a really obvious out -- just take the deal -- that makes sense even if the roll is successful. It's also a pretty unconvincing approach if the actual goal is to keep Soleil alive, since the most obvious 7-9 result is to just call the bluff and see if TumTum actually kills Soleil.

I am kind of torn in situations like this, because it pits 'be a fan of the PCs' against 'make Apocalypse World seem real.' Attempting really weird Manipulates based on unconvincing-to-the-MC leverage is probably the #1 fun-destroyer I have encountered in my AW experience.

Daniel, I'm not sure what part of that seems unconvincing to you. I agree that the leverage is Soleil's life, but I'm not sure why it's all that unreasonable to demand Patriarch take Boiled Face too. Entertoise has the leverage for it, after all. It is threatening to let Tumtum kill Soleil, because that threat is the leverage.

I'm not sure why that isn't sensible. I don't think it's an "out" for Patriarch to take the deal, since that's what Entertoise proposed! That's a success for him. Leverage is Soleil's life, and Entertoise wants Patriarch to either take the deal and both kids, or leave both kids but of his own free will and no hard feelings. On a 10+, Patriarch either takes the deal (great! Now he's stuck with this burden instead of Entertoise) or leaves it (great! Now Entertoise gets to keep Soleil) as per his instinct or personality. On a 7-9, Tumtum can't kill Soleil, because then you have no leverage, but he can certainly start chopping off hands to make it clear he means business. On a 6-, Patriarch says, "fuck you, I can just make more kids. This means war though," or maybe "fine, then neither of us get her," and he kills her himself. Those all seem like they keep AW real while also being a fan of the characters.