Denied right

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Denied right
« on: September 02, 2014, 06:00:26 AM »
Hi !

I just finished first reading and i'm very eager to playtest the game soon.

However, there is one aspect of the rules that left me a little perplexed : the "Denied your right" move.
Most of the player rights are purely fictional rights, like "you have the right to impose law" or "you have the right to command other's assistance". But you are not certain that your right will be respected, so here come the "Denied your right" move, which as far as I understand, act as the guarantee that your right should be respected.

But... the "Denied your right" options mostly sound like "you're unhappy but that's how it is". You can be more or less unhappy, your gods can be unhappy with you, you can be unhappy at the point you will seek revenge... but that's all. Given this, it seems to me that nothing ensures that your right will be respected... so what is the point of owning a right if the only consequence of its violation is (more or less) your unhappiness ? Am I missing something ?

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lumpley

  • 1293
Re: Denied right
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2014, 10:01:10 AM »
You're not missing anything.

There's no guarantee that your right will be respected. When it isn't, your choice is to fight for it, to complain about it, or to accept it.

-Vincent

Re: Denied right
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2014, 11:46:23 AM »
Thank you for your answer.

But given this, what is the difference between a player, let's say a Keep Liege, who has checked "you have the right to impose law...", and has the choice to fight/complain/accept when this right is not respected, and a Keep Liege who simply thinks that his status allows him to impose law and fight/complain/accept when it is not respected ?

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lumpley

  • 1293
Re: Denied right
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2014, 12:24:18 PM »
Well, if the character thinks it's his right, but the player hasn't chosen to make it his right in fact, that means that the player knows and agrees that the character is mistaken.

-Vincent

Re: Denied right
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2014, 12:46:39 PM »
I suspect this rule is going to be a sticking point for a lot of people :).

I'm pretty sure I know the answer, but just to be sure: if the player selects "declares his go or gods are angry", that's not something the MC has to take account of in like, a cosmic way, right? Like, it doesn't mean the god or gods actually are angry and thus more likely to say, descend from the sky on steps of fire and smite the unbeliever, or any such? It's just something that a person is saying which only has effect in the fiction insofar as people are inclined to put stock in the pronouncements of said person vis-a-vis gods and their anger?

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lumpley

  • 1293
Re: Denied right
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2014, 01:00:32 PM »
Oh, no, the god or gods are actually angry. The player is telling the MC, now my gods are angry, and it's the MC's job to say, yes, they are. They're angry that you're denied your right.

Whether this means that they're more likely to descend on steps of fire, I don't know. I suppose that it depends on the god or gods in question.

-Vincent

Re: Denied right
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2014, 01:39:37 PM »
Huh! There's a thing.

Still good though!

Re: Denied right
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2014, 02:53:43 PM »
Re: the last option, What does holding it against the MC entail? or mean?
Looking for a playbook? Check out my page!
http://nerdwerds.blogspot.com/2012/12/all-of-playbooks.html

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lumpley

  • 1293
Re: Denied right
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2014, 02:55:10 PM »
Well, I mean, you know what it's like to hold something against the GM, don't you?

-Vincent

Re: Denied right
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2014, 03:00:14 PM »
It kind of sounds like a game mechanic that addresses the players' relationships. Right?
Looking for a playbook? Check out my page!
http://nerdwerds.blogspot.com/2012/12/all-of-playbooks.html

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lumpley

  • 1293
Re: Denied right
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2014, 03:02:27 PM »
Sure.

-Vincent

Re: Denied right
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2014, 07:08:03 PM »
Haha.

Re: Denied right
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2014, 03:22:37 AM »
I was expecting an answer like: "Every game mechanics address the players' relationship" (with the inner voice that mr Baker do when he posts on AW forum)
;)

Truly, this game mechanic more than any others

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Ich

  • 21
Re: Denied right
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2014, 11:48:51 AM »
To me it's a game mechanic that doesn't ignore the players' relationship.

Re: Denied right
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2014, 03:33:04 PM »
Well, if the character thinks it's his right, but the player hasn't chosen to make it his right in fact, that means that the player knows and agrees that the character is mistaken.
That means that those without a right to impose law, hold the crown &c. will tend to be the ones better placed to actually impose law, hold the crown &c., right? In that, in place of the very deniable right, they will have something undeniable like +1 Strong?

I suspect that what that says about the world might largely be the point: kings don't rule by right, they rule by the choice of others to respect that right?

But in terms of gameplay, it seems to skirt very closely to the having to choose between an evocative game element, and an actively useful one, a choice frustratingly common in RPGs.