Seize something by force and creativity

Easy enough question i think... but i better explain it with an example:

Jeremy the brainer has used the violation glove in front of Grungi, an npc. After a while in a heated situation Jeremy wants to seize by force Grungi to use the glove on him. He rolls and fail, so the MC can make an hard move and this move could be "take away their stuff" and Grungi could take his glove, could "inflict harm" without taking the glove, could "activate their stuff downside" by ripping the glove or anything the MC likes since he can make a move hard as he wants.

But what if the roll was 7-9 or even 10+? Grungi could "trade harm" since seize by force makes PC suffer some harm, but could he lock Jeremy in a hold, or make him trip to run away or something similar that doesn't involve the harm part? Could Grungi throw Jeremy out of a window in the process to "trade harm for harm"?

So the question is: what an MC can do when a PC rolls 7-9 on a seize by force? Is the damage already the slightly worse outcome or you can add something more? (like if you roll 10+ you suffer harm as estabilished, on 7-9+ you suffer harm as estabilished plus a worse outcome, on a 6 the MC can make an hard move)

There's no worse outcome in a Seize by Force, that's from Act Under Fire. On a 10+ pick 3 on a 7-9, pick 2.

yes but that means that npc can only trade damage when someone is seizing by force?! It seems nonsense to me... and in the rulebook it's stated that a 7-9 is a partial hit regardless of the move used. So an NPC can basically do nothing to a pc seizing by force unless he rolls 6 or less? (almost impossible for certain playbooks... for example the gunlugger get hard+3 and +1 for following the read a sitch move, he can only fail on a snake eyes)

Also keep in mind that the story is about Jeremy and the cool stuff he can do to Grungi, not about how clever Grungi is in getting out of it.  The rules provide consequences for failure, and they outline the trade involved with a soft success.

An NPC can inflict harm during any during any PC move, so long as the player rolls under 7.  Pushing Jeremy out a window implies that Jeremy was not successful.  May be appropriate on a 6-, not on a 7+.  Yeah, that's not going to happen a lot with Hard+3.  The Gunlugger's a badass.  On purpose.  Be a fan.

The rules are meant to say what did happen in the story, not model everything that actually could have happened in reality.  It's kind of like how people in movies always hang up the phone after the info dump, but in real life we exchange a few OKs and a "Talk to you later" to make sure there is not something else. 

Well technically the NPC can hurt the PC if he rolls a 7 or higher.  Otherwise why would you have suffer little harm?

Additionally you can break out the harm moves to reflect options like the PC getting tripped, grappled and what not.

Additionally outside of a PC move, you can still inflict a Hard move if the fiction demands it. For example, a dune buggy with Rocks, the owner of the bar the Gunlugger just burned down, rolls up.  The Gunlugger does nothing.  Rocks pulls his shotgun and walks straight for him.  Again the Gunlugger does nothing to deflect this.  Then Rocks shoots him.  Gunlugger takes harm.

So an NPC can basically do nothing to a pc seizing by force unless he rolls 6 or less? (almost impossible for certain playbooks... for example the gunlugger get hard+3 and +1 for following the read a sitch move, he can only fail on a snake eyes)

I'm not sure where you're getting that:

Bran needs 10 minutes alone with Jeanette's body, so he opens fire on H and Marser. He hits the roll with an 11. “Take definite hold, suffer little harm, impress dismay or frighten,” he says. “Fantastic,” I say. “You hit H for 2-harm and he goes down, Marser drags him away. Marser heaved his crowbar at you, but you could, like, turn it aside with your arm. You take 1-harm. It'll bruise but whatever.” (page 196).

Sometimes i would like my npc to react to seize by force not by exchanging harm but doing something different: run away, hold the PC in an arm lock, throwing the antidote into the fire and so on... Ofc if the PC takes definitive hold of something, you can't do that but otherwise could you? Or you just have to exchange harm as estabilished?

Remember that "Sieze by force" is just a move, it's not combat rules. I mean, there are no "Roll initiative, choose manouver"-combat rules in Apocalypse World, save for maybe the peripheral battle moves.

Instead, conceptualise the game as fiction happening through freeform conversation, where the moves come in and modify the fiction. Unless the move explicitly changes something in the fiction, the fiction happens as established.

And make sure the players state what they are doing and what they're trying to achive by doing that, and then you pick the move accordingly. If they're trying to get a hold of the antidote the NPC holds, maybe it's actually Acting under fire, the fire being the NPC throwing the antidote in the fire before they can react.

So, think fiction first and then pick the move (if any: if there is no question about it, it just happens, no roll necessary) accordingly.

Sometimes i would like my npc to react to seize by force not by exchanging harm but doing something different: run away, hold the PC in an arm lock, throwing the antidote into the fire and so on... Ofc if the PC takes definitive hold of something, you can't do that but otherwise could you? Or you just have to exchange harm as estabilished?

In order to do something, you have to do it. If the PC is doing something other than "inflict violence on someone who is inflicting violence back on me, in order to achieve some specific goal", then he's not Seizing By Force. He's doing something else. In the specific cases you mentioned, here's how I handle things:

• "run away" -- Go Aggro. On a 10+, the NPC has a choice: he can either cave and stay put, or suck up the harm and try to escape. If he chooses the later option, and is still ambulatory afterwards (probably only the case if he's wearing armor, given how fragile NPCs are), he gets away. On a 7-9, the NPC barricades himself in somewhere; he certainly hasn't gotten away, but the PC  will have to change tactics if he wants to get at him (technically, I could also have him "back off calmly, hands where you can see", but that doesn't make sense given the situation: if the NPC tries that, the PC will just shoot him). On a miss, the NPC is gone.
• "hold the PC in an arm lock" -- Act Under Fire. The fire is that he gets you in the arm lock. Pretty straight forward.
• "throwing the antidote into the fire" -- Act Under Fire again. The fire is that he destroys the antidote before you can stop him.

Sometimes i would like my npc to react to seize by force not by exchanging harm but doing something different: run away, hold the PC in an arm lock, throwing the antidote into the fire and so on... Ofc if the PC takes definitive hold of something, you can't do that but otherwise could you? Or you just have to exchange harm as estabilished?

Yes, you have to exchange harm as established. But then it's your turn to do something, and the NPC can do whatever you think she should do, whether it's run away, arm-lock, or whatever. If the PC does enough harm, the NPC may not be in much shape to do this. But it's not like the PC just gets to keep doing things endlessly and the NPC only acts when the PC misses a roll: it's a conversation, back and forth between them and you, and when it's your turn to talk you can say whatever makes sense.

But also, if the NPC isn't fighting back, then Seize by Force probably isn't the right move. It may be that Go Aggro would better model the situation in question -- the 7-9 options on Go Aggro include lots of different options for the NPC, including running away, etc.

Don't forget the Harm Move!!!

I always forget about making the Harm Move. But many of the outcomes of that move are exactly the sort of effects you want Grungi to inflict: lose your footing (maybe right out the window...), lose your grip on something you're holding (like a glove...), lose track of someone (Grungi gets away...) etc.

As long as you deal at least 1-harm, then even if you fail the Harm Move you can trade the 1-harm for such an effect anyway.

 -- 77IM

Yeah you are right about the harm move! Thank you!

Sometimes i would like my npc to react to seize by force not by exchanging harm but doing something different: run away, hold the PC in an arm lock, throwing the antidote into the fire and so on... Ofc if the PC takes definitive hold of something, you can't do that but otherwise could you? Or you just have to exchange harm as estabilished?

I understand. Don't call for the SbF roll. That move is for when the knives and guns are out on both sides. Violence everywhere. If the PC is trying to grab the NPC who is running away, Act Under Fire. If the PC is trying to shoot the NPC who is trying to put the PC in an arm lock, Act under Fire. If the PC is trying to shoot the NPC before he throws the antidote in the fire, you need some context. If the PC pulls his gun and the player says "if he doesn't back away from the fire, I'm gonna shoot him"...Go Aggro! If the player is just shooting and you want to know if he hits him true before the antidote is thrown, you could always respond with intermittent reward and give him the shot (especially if an intact antidote by the fire leads to interesting conflicts) or again, Act Under Fire.

Go Aggro works just fine for that second scenario as well, actually. On any hit the NPC has to suck it up in order to toss the antidote, but a 7-9 result give him other interesting options.