Damage rules using 2d6 rolls

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Re: Damage rules using 2d6 rolls
« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2012, 01:56:55 PM »
I see where you're coming from on this, Gaigaia.  You're basically exchanging "Roll Monster Damage" for "roll 2d6+protection" and "Roll Class Damage" for "roll 2d6+Damage".  And then making the outcome of that 2d6+x result have a narrative, fiction-first result rather than just a numeric result.

Yes, you said it better than me. And I see the problems of adapting the whole system for it, but, as I said, the way this damage roll was thought was using the Worlds of Dungeons, but it can work with DW. Just converting the damage dice is very easy, and that would do it. But, in the end, it would take time.

Would you people like to see an adaptation to the DW engine of this method? I could make it, given some time.

But, I dont know. I dont like the idea of a table of damage, as you said. I find tables boring, rs. Well, I don't know, I'm brainstorming here. I find the idea cool, but I feel it can be improved, but I don't know how. More people besides me should play it and see what can be done, maybe.

The Harm moves (Damage and Protection) gave many good possibilities for roleplay. I don't know guys, I don't know, rs.

So, would you people be interested in an adaptation of the damage system of DW to this one to have a better idea?

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Re: Damage rules using 2d6 rolls
« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2012, 04:42:37 PM »
I think my group would take issue with the fact that there's no concrete measurement of how close to death something is. Even like, "you can take 3 serious wounds before dying" or something. But if I said "okay, you've been hit a couple times, the next one will kill you," I think they'd cry foul. Too much GM fiat for my guys.

Re: Damage rules using 2d6 rolls
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2012, 05:05:07 PM »
Well, you can use some kind of damage track, similar to the one in Monster of the Week. Something like: You can receive 6 soft damages before dying, or 2 Hard damages.

I don't like this kind of measurment because it seems too dissociated with the fiction, for me. You can use the Recover Moves that I showed before as a way to track the damage threshold. Maybe, instead of using them for the 7 to 9 damage, you could say that, when you receive hard damage, you are wounded and must recover. If you receive other hard damage while not healed, you die.

It might seem very lethal this way, but it's not like that. As it is said in the book, you don't need the monster to cause damage. So, if there is a character that is wounded and you don't want him to die, just use other move, disarm him, separate him, make him incounscious, etc.

So, how would that work? When characters receive damage, they roll+Protection. When they get a 7 to 9, they receive soft damage. Soft damage is a disarm, stun or a preparation for a bigger damage. On a 6-, they receive Hard Damage, and must recover. If they do not recover before receiving another Hard damage, they die.

Other characters can protect the wounded. Also, to recover from a wound is not exactly to remove the condition. So, if you have your arm broken, you can recover from the attack and continue fighting, but your arm will continue broken until you are healed.

I've had also other idea. Maybe it could have 2 boxes of damage, 1 for Soft and 1 for Hard damage (Scratches and Wounds). When you receive one kind of damage, you mark those off. If you have both marked and receive any kind of damage, you are down. You can use Recover Moves to erase Soft Damage.

If you receive Hard Damage, if the Hard damage box is already checked, you can mark the soft damage instead.

I don't know, these ideas feel strange. What do you think?

Maybe do something else? Maybe a Hard damage could mean 'out of the combat', you are wounded enough to not fight and, if you choose to fight,  if you are hurt again, you die. What do you think? Or, instead of dying, you are uncounscious, I don't know. Maybe 1 Hard Damage = 'you are wounded and should stop fighting'. 2 Hard Damages = 'you are automaticaly out'.


What about these rules? What do you think?

Re: Damage rules using 2d6 rolls
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2012, 06:41:11 PM »
In our current Bootleggers game (adapted from World of Dungeons) we don't use HP. When you suffer harm, you roll+stamina. On a 10+, you take the least harm as established, and you can continue. On a 7-9, you suffer the full harm as established, but you're still up. On a 6-, you suffer the worst of it, and you're out of action.

This means, as gaigaia has been saying, that we need to look at the fiction when harm is in play to know what the roll means. If you get punched in the face, on a 10+, you roll with it, and you're fine, maybe you get a black eye later. If you get shot, on a 10+, it passes straight through, doesn't hit anything vital. But you're still shot. There's blood everywhere, you have a hole or two in you. Better get that taken care of.

Death depends on fictional positioning. It might come from a tire-iron to the back of the skull, or a burst from a tommy gun. The stamina roll doesn't even determine how deadly something is, just what you're able to do after the harm hits.

To give the PCs a little "PC glow" we also use Fate points. Everyone starts with one. You can spend a Fate point to avoid any terrible outcome. Including deadly attacks, but also something like getting sent to prison for life (you get off on a technicality). So we can play hard, with high stakes and "real" harm, but the PCs have an out if the player is really attached to that character and wants to avoid the end.

So.. yeah. Alternate harm systems are fun. :) Go for it. Try different things and you'll dial it in.

Re: Damage rules using 2d6 rolls
« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2012, 06:58:09 PM »
So, basically that's it. John summed it very well and said better than myself. The only thing different that I like to do is to use Protection from armor instead of Con. I do that to give equipment a more important role. That's basically it, but it could use only CON and STR for the rolls.

So, in resume, it could be:

10+ You resist the damage
7 to 9, You take the damage and must react to it
6-, You take the worst of the damage and is out of action

And, to die, the fiction must walks towards it, with a fatal blow or maybe geing hurt while down.

I find it funny that we are, as rpg players, so familiarized with the idea of HPs that we find sometimes hard to deal with things that are so natural. Things like: 'When would someone die?', 'If there are no HPs, how can we track damage?'

I'm not telling that in a sarcastic way, but in a more analytical one. Don't you guys find that funny too? We live our lives always receiving damage, but we do not know how much 'hp' we lost. When we hurt our legs, broke some bone or go through a glass door and having the flesh of our arms being hang out from our bones (yeah, that was not a pleasant experience, I must say, lol), we do not think 'Ok, now I have lost X hit points' nor 'Now I gain the condition "mutilated"'. We just scream in pain and anger, basically.

So, the question 'when do you die' in a rpg is kind of curious from the sociological and cultural point of view, I should say! But I'm digressing sooo much, forgive me, people.

I see that you've been using similar rules for your sessions, John. Would you kindly say to us how does it go? I'm curious about the healing powers, would in your games they be present. Or anything, really. I would like to hear from other players the problems and benefits of this method, if possible.

Re: Damage rules using 2d6 rolls
« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2012, 07:11:02 PM »
For WoDu, I use HP and healing as written (mostly... we try out house rules here and there). A harm roll could work, but we're invested in the old school vibe so we stick to HP.

For Bootleggers, I use the harm roll above, and healing is handled fictionally. You got shot, you need a doctor and a week in bed (or more, depending). No one has been seriously taken out for a long time yet, but if they were, they'd probably pick up another character to play in the mean time.

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Re: Damage rules using 2d6 rolls
« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2012, 07:33:28 PM »
I mean, I'm not particularly invested in HP, I'm comfortable using different metrics, fictional or mechanical. But my group definitely likes to know what their status is. When you say "a character is wounded and you don't want him to die, so use another move, disarm him etc", I understand that idea but I could totally see that being called "GM fiat," y'know? Like, their character survived at my whim, that's not very empowering. The threat of death needs to be real in order to matter, but it also needs to be fair. It's a tricky line to walk, for sure.

For a less combat heavy game, I could see using a narrative system like this- it's a really neat idea. But with the battle focus of DW, I think my players would demand the unbiased metric of HP.

Re: Damage rules using 2d6 rolls
« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2012, 07:53:11 PM »
But scrape, it's ALWAYS at the gm whim to use a damage move or not, EVEN in DW. You choose when there is damage or not, and you may even choose not to roll damage and say a value instead of it.

So, what's the difference? If you truly don't want them to feel that way, you must say something like, in combat, when you roll to attack, a 6- or 7 to 9 always means that the monster will cause damage. That's the only true way for the treat of death be real, because, as the gm, you will always be able to choose 'know back' or 'grapple' or 'know inconscious' instead of 'damage'.

How do your players feel about it? Do they know that you can always choose not to do damage? How is it different from the 2d6 damage method? I'm curious and confuse here

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Re: Damage rules using 2d6 rolls
« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2012, 08:47:19 PM »
Don't feel like we're arguing or anything, it's a good discussion! I'm not trying to stonewall, I hope it doesn't feel that way. Anyway, my monsters tend to deal damage on a 7-9 or 6- Hack&Slash, along with other fictionally justified effects, unless it's clear that they're going for a nonlethal attack. For instance, if they're threatening to disarm a player, I make that known with my description of their attack. Every threat is laid clear beforehand so they know what they're up against.

So if I'm like "the jaguar leaps at you, fangs bared," and the player rolls an 8, they're gonna get bit, maybe knocked back or something if their reaction allows it. The player's response dictates the result as well, of course. Rolling that damage makes it concrete and impartial. We may have a different playstyle, that's all. I totally encourage whatever works for your group, that's awesome. You said you were looking for reactions, that's all, so I'm explaining why my players prefer numerical HP. Either way is cool!

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noofy

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Re: Damage rules using 2d6 rolls
« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2012, 10:47:11 PM »
Jeremy rather eloquently surmises why I think your suggestion is crunchy. It requires far more than a simple replacement of rolling damage with a damage move and adjudicating a few different damage types. All power to you for trying it out though!

For me, its just an extension of the 'roll to hit, roll for damage' paradigm which at its heart seems so old skool, yet does get in the way of 'World engine narrative principles.

Have you read Technoir? It uses conditions and sticky adjectives. Its a pretty cool system for dealing with 'harm'.

Re: Damage rules using 2d6 rolls
« Reply #25 on: November 27, 2012, 12:56:48 PM »
Atualization to the rules:

So, after discussing in this tread I redesigned the harm rules using 2d6 and tested it this sunday, and they seemed better. I implemented what John said and here it is:

Harm rules using 2d6

When you cause life threatening damage, roll+ Damage of the weapon. 6-, you don't cause significant damage. 7 to 9, you push the enemy back, cause pain, stun or scratch him. 10+, you knock him down, wound him (now he is dying), incapacitate (he is down and hurt) or mutilate.

When you receive life threatening damage, roll+Protection of your armor. 6-,  you are knocked down, wounded, incapacitated or mutilated. On a 7 to 9, you are scratched, in pain, stunned or pushed back. On a 10+, you absorb and ignore the damage.

The damage and protection moves are only when you are receiving damage that can really hurt. Other kinds of damage will cause automatically a result of 7 to 9 or 6-. The damage roll is for the threat of death.

When there is PvP (player vs player), roll the combat moves just normally. At each players 'turns', they say their move. On a 7 to 9, the other player can answer the attack or tactic. If they both deal damage to each other, roll the 'acting' player, the one with the initiative, first. Then, roll protection for the passive player. If the results are equal (for example, they both get 6-,7 to 9 or 10+), the damage/ protection is like a 7 to 9 result. The one rolls a higher result than the other, or the damage was great (10+) or insipient (6-). Now, the other player may roll the damage and the attacked roll protection. Even if one player dies before having a chance to roll damage, since in the fiction they both hurt themselves, even if the dice rolling is not simultaneous.

So, these are the atualizations.


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Re: Damage rules using 2d6 rolls
« Reply #26 on: November 27, 2012, 03:24:52 PM »
Okay, that's interesting. I like the new method, it cleans it up while keeping everything tied to the fiction and making sure damage is predictably set up by the situation. The pvp seems a bit clunky, but I've never seen pvp come up in a DW game so it probably wouldn't affect my group. Neat!

Re: Damage rules using 2d6 rolls
« Reply #27 on: November 27, 2012, 04:31:19 PM »
Pvp happened at sunday, when I MCed this new set of rules. You can see it in this forum, at my Black Wave AP.  The Pvp is at the end of the AP. You don't need to read all of it if you want, but you could see the pvp. It wasn't that clunky and was kind of interesting, but, for each roll, there is space for interpretation.

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Re: Damage rules using 2d6 rolls
« Reply #28 on: November 27, 2012, 08:57:58 PM »
I will def check it out, I'm really curious. Thanks!