Moonkis Questions about the rules.

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Moonkis Questions about the rules.
« on: November 09, 2012, 07:29:23 AM »
This is a topic where I will gather all my questions about the rules, and hopefully get clarifications.

Rule Questions
  • What does Force your hand mean?
  • Clarification of how the Barter ( currency ) works and how it's used.

Active Question
I'm wondering what the "Force his/her hand" means, also how does the Barter works in AW? How is it used?

Re: Moonkis Questions about the rules.
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2012, 10:26:03 AM »
Forcing your hand means forcing you to do violence upon them. It's about going agro, right? "Force your hand and suck it up" means you've got your gun against their forehead, and they yell "go ahead!" or just stand there and you shoot them. Blam. Inflict damage as established.

Barter is just, sometimes as a MC it's your time to talk, and you pick a move, and it's "make them pay for it" and you decide barter is the price. 1-barter, 2-barter sometimes, sometimes more. If they have it, they spend it and it's gone, but they got what they want. Like they're in a shop, and they ask you "so, any gun in there ?" and it's your turn to talk, so you pick "make them pay" and misdirect : "yeah, there's a bunch of automatics behind a chained door. You're looking at them, and a guy pops up and say "like what you see? It's one barter apiece.""

Basically, it's just money, but in large chunk, no pennies.

Sometimes the game itself tells you how much it costs (like 1-barter gets you 2-stock for your angel's kit), sometimes it tells you how much some character get (like moonlighting or wealth).

1-barter is enough to get basic shelter and food for a month. More on barter bottom of p. 101 and full pp. 236-238.

Re: Moonkis Questions about the rules.
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2012, 05:07:07 AM »
Forcing your hand means forcing you to do violence upon them. It's about going agro, right? "Force your hand and suck it up" means you've got your gun against their forehead, and they yell "go ahead!" or just stand there and you shoot them. Blam. Inflict damage as established.
I feel really stupid but do you care to elaborate this a bit more, what is the actual difference of yelling "go ahead" and just getting shot? How about the "Direct-brain whisper projection" in the Moves Snowballing example? It counts as going aggro but without going aggro, is "Forcing hand" the same as "You know, fuck you I'm not going to tell you shit, just fucking shoot me already you pussy!" aka not doing what the one going aggro wants. How does this works when someone is just threatening someone?

Barter is just, sometimes as a MC it's your time to talk, and you pick a move, and it's "make them pay for it" and you decide barter is the price. 1-barter, 2-barter sometimes, sometimes more. If they have it, they spend it and it's gone, but they got what they want. Like they're in a shop, and they ask you "so, any gun in there ?" and it's your turn to talk, so you pick "make them pay" and misdirect : "yeah, there's a bunch of automatics behind a chained door. You're looking at them, and a guy pops up and say "like what you see? It's one barter apiece.""

Basically, it's just money, but in large chunk, no pennies.

Sometimes the game itself tells you how much it costs (like 1-barter gets you 2-stock for your angel's kit), sometimes it tells you how much some character get (like moonlighting or wealth).

1-barter is enough to get basic shelter and food for a month. More on barter bottom of p. 101 and full pp. 236-238.
What if the characters can't pay? And must they pay if you choose "make them pay" or could they just walk away? Or does that move just mean, you wont get that for free this time, can this be either Barter or exchange in a favor?


Thank you so much for answering!

Re: Moonkis Questions about the rules.
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2012, 11:55:26 AM »
what is the actual difference of yelling "go ahead" and just getting shot? How about the "Direct-brain whisper projection" in the Moves Snowballing example? It counts as going aggro but without going aggro, is "Forcing hand" the same as "You know, fuck you I'm not going to tell you shit, just fucking shoot me already you pussy!" aka not doing what the one going aggro wants. How does this works when someone is just threatening someone?

Okay, the thing is, when you go aggro on someone and hit a 10+, it's not your decision anymore, it's your victim's player's.

It's up to them to decide, by any means they deem fit, if a) their character suffer harm as established, like that, no more roll needed or b) their character does as they are told.

It's their only choices, you get no saying about that choice (other than, say, picking your biggest gun to threaten them with if you really want them to cave) and it's a player thing, not a character thing.

So yeah, you're free to say "no" every damn time someone goes aggro on you and hit 10+. But that means you're also going to suffer harm as established, just like that, every time.

That said, "to do it, do it", and "make your move, but misdirect". When the victim's player's made their choice, it's also up to them to present this choice a) in fiction and b) in a way that makes sense.

If you just want to threaten someone, not actually hurt them, but make them believe you're going to, that's manipulating someone and the leverage is "I won't hurt you", not going aggro on them. Go aggro when you're absolutely 100% determined to inflict harm if they don't cave (or you just want to inflict harm).

What if the characters can't pay? And must they pay if you choose "make them pay" or could they just walk away? Or does that move just mean, you wont get that for free this time, can this be either Barter or exchange in a favor?

If they can't pay, they don't have what they were asking for, and feel free to escalate by following with another move, and this time, be mean.

If they don't pay the rent, take away their stuff. If one PC don't pay the train fare, seperate them. If they don't pay for a gun but take it anyway, announce the consequences and ask : "the old guy's just behind you and his hand is close to HIS gun. If you take those gun and run with it, he's going to open fire. You do it ?" If they try to negociate, put them in a spot ("that's okay, of course we can forget the rent this time... if you kill your mother.")

Any move is good in return, provided it makes sense in the fiction. Any move will push the thing forward and keep the game moving.

Of course, the PCs can also seize the initiative and responds with a move of their own. "Fucker III is coming to get the rent? Fuck it, I wait for him by the size of the door and when he comes in, I put my gun on his fat head and whisper "how do you like lead for payment, motherfucker? Forget about the rent or I blow your brains all over." I go aggro." And that's good! That's perfect, even.

(And then you think off screen and ask yourself "wait, if III comes back to Uncle empty-handed, what's gonna happen? What would III do in that situation? Use his own barter to pay Uncle and try to get back at the PC afterward? Tell Uncle straight about it to come clean? What would Uncle do about it?" and you're going somewhere interesting.)
 
Hope that helps!

Re: Moonkis Questions about the rules.
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2012, 01:34:45 PM »
If they force your hand, that means they call your bluff -- ie they won't do what you want them to do. And since you're not bluffing, they get hurt. Whatever it is you're threatening to do to them, you do to them.

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noclue

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Re: Moonkis Questions about the rules.
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2012, 01:42:04 PM »
Gregor's got this one and the examples are great for looking at your questions. You pull your gun on III and get in his grill. The MC decides if there's a move there. III could be like "it's all good. I'll get paid next week." But that doesn't make the PC's life interesting and AW is about scarcity. You can't just give shit away. So it's Go Aggro. On a 10+ he forces your hand and gets shot, but now his gun is out or he's yelled for backup or he's pulled the pin on a motherfucking hand grenade. And that's different then just getting shot.
James R.

    "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which can not fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance-that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
     --HERBERT SPENCER

Re: Moonkis Questions about the rules.
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2012, 03:37:06 PM »
If they can't pay, they don't have what they were asking for, and feel free to escalate by following with another move, and this time, be mean.

I'm not sure if this is just a phrasing thing, but whether or not the PC can afford to buy the thing does not affect whether the NPC has it in the first place -- if they didn't have it, 'make them pay' wouldn't be a sensible move, because you can't pay for something that doesn't exist.

Not being able to buy something with barter is after all a perfect opportunity for them to try and get what they want some other, more complicated/messy/violent way.

It also seems pretty inappropriate to double-down with a harder follow-up move, just because the PC doesn't have barter: instead, you should ask them what they do instead to deal with the situation, since they can't just pay up. There should be some time between 'you owe jingle for the rent and you don't have it, what do you do?' and 'your landlord shows up with a gang to beat the rent money out of you.'

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noclue

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Re: Moonkis Questions about the rules.
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2012, 04:22:46 PM »
Maybe. I could see someone pulling out guns when you tell them they're not getting paid.

Maybe=depends on the fiction.
James R.

    "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which can not fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance-that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
     --HERBERT SPENCER