Multiclass Dabbler

Greetings,

In previous editions of the rules the multiclass dabbler advanced move was explained in length under the fighter section along the lines of:

"Get one move from another class. For the purposes of Multiclass Dabbler the Wizard's Spellbook, Prepare Spells, and Cast a Spell moves count as one move. The Cleric's Commune and Cast a Spell moves also count as one move. If you gain the ability to cast spells you cast them as if you were one level lower."

In the latest edition of the rules, the wording has been simplified to:

"Get one move from another class. Treat your level as one lower for choosing the move."

Does this mean that you no longer get the combination of Cleric or Wizard spellcasting moves by taking multiclass dabbler?  I just wanted some clarity on the new wording of the text.

Cheers,
Greymalken

You can snag cleric spellcasting from druid or ranger, since they have single moves that grant the full set of divine spellcasting tools.

Wizard spellcasting seems to be unavailable through multiclassing, though.  I've been wondering about the why of that myself.

This got lots in the reorganization, it's back in now. It applies to all multiclass moves: any starting class moves that depend on each other count as one move for the purposes of multiclass moves. That means wizard spellbook, prepare, and cast a spell, cleric's commune and cast a spell, ranger's command and animal companion, etc.

Ah, cool.

Hey, related question.  If a Fighter takes Cleric spellcasting at level 3 using the Multiclass thing, he immediately gets level 2 Cleric spellcasting, and the next level he will have level 3 Cleric spellcasting.  Okay, cool.  But if a Ranger does the same thing, he only gets level 1 Cleric spellcasting, and will only be at level 2 Cleric spellcasting at the next level.  Worse, this means that the Ranger must, in order to play optimally, either take God Of The Wastes at level 2 or else not at all, since the move gets passively stronger with each level but only if you already have it.  The rest of Dungeon World is blissfully free of this sort of "plan your build ten levels in advance" kind of decision-making, so it's jarring to see it here.  This is really easy to house rule, of course, just have God Of The Wastes act exactly like Multiclass <Whatever> except you can only use it for the Cleric spellcasting move, but I'm wondering if there's a particular reason for this.

For clarity of discussion, here's the move in question;

Dedicate yourself to a deity (name a new one or choose one that’s already been established). You gain the commune and cast a spell cleric moves. When you select this move, treat yourself as a cleric of level 1 for using spells. Every time you gain a level thereafter, increase your effective cleric level by 1.

The intent here wasn't to multiclass you, exactly, thought it does let you take the moves that let you have the Cleric's ability to cast spells.  What it reflects is that you've "found god" in the wilderness, so to speak, and begun a journey of faith.  First step on a journey is level 1, right?  *grin*

So, basically, yes, you're limited, but since the spells aren't 1d6/level types, for the most part, it's less of an issue in play.

As you say, though, easy easy to house-rule as needed.  It won't break anything.  Promise.

The intent here wasn't to multiclass you, exactly, thought it does let you take the moves that let you have the Cleric's ability to cast spells.  What it reflects is that you've "found god" in the wilderness, so to speak, and begun a journey of faith.  First step on a journey is level 1, right?  *grin*

Mm, but surely the first step in dabbling is also level 1, right? ;P If the intent wasn't to simply multiclass, but to represent the beginning of a more religious path, then I think a completely different and original move to represent divine power may have been called for, for the ranger and paladin.

I agree with Chamomile here. It's the only sort of advanced move that changes in usefulness depending on when it's obtained. From a mechanical standpoint, it strongly encourages a ranger who's interested in the move to take it immediately, and I feel that interferes with the "fiction first" elements of the game.

And whichever way you choose to go, I feel that Divine Favor and God Amidst the Wastes should work the same as Multiclass Dabbler when it comes to spells. That a fighter who picks up divine spellcasting will always be better at it than a ranger or paladin, unless those two take their moves at level 2, seems a weird quirk. And while it's easy to house rule, I personally feel that it's at least a minor issue with the system that's perhaps worth addressing.

If you gain a move that counts levels of a class (spell casting, usually) you count your level in that class from 1.

So, 3rd level fighter multiclasses into cleric, gets cast a spell, casts as a 1st level cleric. He gains another level and no matter what move he chooses he casts like a 2nd level cleric.

If you gain a move that counts levels of a class (spell casting, usually) you count your level in that class from 1.

So, 3rd level fighter multiclasses into cleric, gets cast a spell, casts as a 1st level cleric. He gains another level and no matter what move he chooses he casts like a 2nd level cleric.

That's . . . not how it's worded in Multiclass Dabbler. At all. Should go ahead and make a pull request on Github?

Already fixed, but not pushed.

There's a section that explains the Multiclass moves, as described in this thread, in the playing the game chapter. Not worth adding a ton of text to every multiclass move.

The one-level lower requirement is only about choice: at 2nd you can only choose starting moves, you can't choose a 6-10 move from another class until 7 in your main class.

If you gain a move that counts levels of a class (spell casting, usually) you count your level in that class from 1.

So, 3rd level fighter multiclasses into cleric, gets cast a spell, casts as a 1st level cleric. He gains another level and no matter what move he chooses he casts like a 2nd level cleric.

Oh no, fix Paladin and Druid to act like Fighter did originally, not the other way around. Consider these two versions of that rule:

Version A (as original Fighter): When a move allows you to take a move from another class, for the purposes of that move, you have level in that class one less than your character's level.

Version B (original Paladin): When a move allows you to take a move from another class, for the purposes of that move, you have level 1 in that class. Each time you gain a character level, subsequently, treat your level in that move's class as one higher.


Now, consider an optimizing system master player. With Version B, he will obviously take the multiclass move at second level. It's almost unimaginable that an alternative would be mechanically superior. With Version A, he might delay taking it if other moves seem more useful at low level, than a low level casting.  But in practice, there's very little power differential between the two. Version A is certainly not overpowered so long as Version B is not.

But consider a new player, with little system mastery. With Version B, if he decides, post level 2, to pick up Cleric or Wizard casting, he's made a newb mistake.  His character is forever gimped compared to an equal level character played by the system master player who knew to pick up casting at level 2. Even worse, consider if the player was inspired to pick up casting due to roleplaying events. Now he's being penalized for building his character organically with his roleplaying, instead of mastering the system and preplanning it. With Version A, there is no such penalty for lack of system mastery.

So, in short, Version A gives the optimizer very little additional power compared to Version B, while Version B presents a big trap to new players. I think it's clear that Version A is the superior rule.

There isn't a right or wrong way to do this, just different things to say about the world we're creating.

If your level is one lower than your current level then you can never cast a spell, get to 10th level, and suddenly be a 9th level cast. That's fine, but it doesn't quite fit the world—why did the wizard spend 9 levels working on spellcasting to be that awesome, where you spent 9 levels stabbing things and suddenly become a master caster?

It's not that the actual situation is the problem (the wizard will have 8 levels of spell casting-related moves to make them stand out), it's the logic of it.

Yes, this does mean that if you want to be a viable multiclass caster you're better off doing it early, but I think we're cool with that.

There isn't a right or wrong way to do this, just different things to say about the world we're creating.

Maybe not, but there are good and bad mechanics. And the mechanic you've settled on is a bad one that punishes, severely, lack of system mastery, or building characters organically through roleplay. And it's particularly glaring in a system that, otherwise, is so well designed to avoid those sorts of traps.

If your level is one lower than your current level then you can never cast a spell, get to 10th level, and suddenly be a 9th level cast. That's fine, but it doesn't quite fit the world—why did the wizard spend 9 levels working on spellcasting to be that awesome, where you spent 9 levels stabbing things and suddenly become a master caster?

But you're not a master caster.  A master caster is, as you point out, a Wizard with 10 levels of casting, and 9 Wizard advanced moves. The Fighter who takes Dabbler at level 10 "suddenly" gains more casting potency than a fighter at level 2, sure, but he's not just 9 levels a better Fighter; he's also 9 levels a more awesome character.

Furthermore, why must the Fighter spend 9 levels only stabbing things?  Perhaps the FIghter was also studying spellbooks all this time, and it only just "clicked" at level 10?  It's never feasible for mechanics to enforce that all possible roleplayings a player might dream up using them will make sense.  After all, I could roleplay a Wizard that does nothing but stab things with a dagger all day, and never looks at his spellbook, yet somehow gains more spell levels, and can "suddenly" cast 9th level spells at high level when he finally looks at his spellbook again. All we can do provide mechanics that can be roleplayed coherently.

This is nothing new to your game; in fact, this principle is the very core of the game. The mechanics do not tell us what is and is not possible in the fiction. The fiction does that. The mechanics provide support, and give us a fair way to resolve tasks and conflicts that do not have an obvious resolution.

So, can a 10th level Fighter suddenly become a 9th level caster?  Unless it's mechanically broken for that to happen (and it isn't), the mechanics should be silent on it.  Let the fiction determine whether it can happen. Let the DM challenge the player to justify it. Maybe the Fighter's had his father's spellbook on him the whole time.  Maybe the evil wizard he just slew transferred a fragment of his dark soul into his. Or maybe the DM and player can simply compromise and say that those caster levels will need to be gained gradually over the course of some passage of in-universe time. Perhaps add that as a piece of advice for the DM.

This is ultimately the same as the Fighter attacking a giant iron golem with a dagger.  Is it encoded into the mechanics of Hack and Slash that a dagger is useless against a 20' magically-animated golem made of 6in thick iron?  No. The fundamental mechanics of the game cite common sense to tell us that. Unless, of course, the Fighter's player can justify it to the DM.

eth0.n, the thing that you seem to forget is that if a fighter spent months or years studying magic, perhaps is feasible to say that something has changed in him, the trials and effort in that frame of time has finally proven useful and he now is able to feats of spellcasting WITHOUT taking a the multiclass dabler move. Most likely he won't be a truly acomplished mage, but he knows the basics and can go forward from them on. I'm not trying to say that your opinion on this matter is wrong, but to take into account that there is already something system-wise that let's everybody shape their characters whatever the move they may have.