Playing cards for AW? Genius.

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Playing cards for AW? Genius.
« on: September 07, 2010, 11:07:50 AM »
Rob Donahue on AW and the utility of using cards as an element of play.

Quote from: Rob Donahue
I want to zero in on a particular element of the rules that really struck me as interesting, that is to say, how strongly the rules seem in keeping with those of a Collectible (or non-Collectible) card game.

I hadn't even thought of that approach, but I've got to say, it's very good. Now, who knows of any open source ccg card-making utility?

Secondly, Vincent, when you designed AW, was this ever a design consideration?

John

Re: Playing cards for AW? Genius.
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2010, 11:41:37 AM »
I love this too. When I first saw Magic: The Gathering all those years ago, I remember thinking it was a roleplaying game, and being disappointed to find out that it wasn't. Since then I've always wished the CCG and the RPG could collide and have a baby that was both of the two together.

Re: Playing cards for AW? Genius.
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2010, 07:00:49 PM »
Hey, that makes a lot of sense. I love exception-based design, and I love Apocalypse World, yet I never put the two together. Good stuff.

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NPC

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Re: Playing cards for AW? Genius.
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2010, 03:31:57 AM »
I love this too. When I first saw Magic: The Gathering all those years ago, I remember thinking it was a roleplaying game, and being disappointed to find out that it wasn't. Since then I've always wished the CCG and the RPG could collide and have a baby that was both of the two together.

I recommend checking out Fantasy Flight's new take on the Warhammer RPG. It's a nice mix of the two, and a good source for mechanical card-based inspiration. Pricey, though, but damn slick.

Now I want to see if I can incorporate any of it into this game...

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Judd

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Re: Playing cards for AW? Genius.
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2010, 10:05:42 AM »
My problem with cards at the AW table is how I often see cards used.  Cards, to me, often get looked over so that players can see their options.  I'm not sure that is what I want from the players when I am playing AW.  I want them acting as their character and us matching the moves to what they do, rather than shuffling through some cards in order to figure out what to do.

Does that make sense?

I don't know, maybe I am way off-base here.

Re: Playing cards for AW? Genius.
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2010, 01:12:53 PM »
Judd,

My initial reaction was the cards were awesome! After all, fiddly bits and cool things that I can obsess over and create in my lonely time fun!

But, based on an initial attempt using 3x5 cards... it does tend to have a slight effect to go as you fear. It wasn't like a sweeping change or anything, but going into conflict situations folks did look to their cards/moves in a way that seemed to slightly diminish the way they looked to their character or the fiction.

We might also have just been having an off night. But I dunno, thinking about it the games where this kind of thing has been successful (D&D 4th, Spycraft) the reason it worked was a good part of play was about the moves. "I'm finally going to get to unload on the Dragon King with my Slayer's Lunge daily!" Where as in Apocalypse World it really isn't.

But still... man... cool cards with pictures!

Re: Playing cards for AW? Genius.
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2010, 03:27:41 PM »
I feel like there's a difference here between basic moves and a character's special moves. I think Judd has a point if we're talking about basic moves. Considering the tactical advantages of each of the basic moves sounds pretty lame.

On the other hand, a character's special moves strike me as the sort of thing you want the player to be aiming for. You can whisper people's names to the psychic maelstrom and they come to you? Cool! I want you to be reminded of that possibility as often as possible.

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Chris

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Re: Playing cards for AW? Genius.
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2010, 04:17:06 PM »
I don't understand this at all. So you have the moves... on cards.... instead of on the character sheet. Like, I'm not laying down the cards or "playing" them.... I need them again in a minute. So instead of one character sheet.... I now have 14 little cards to search through?

And I still have to have my character sheet, for improvement and all that, and it already has all the moves listed on it?

It really just seems like a bunch of redundant pieces of paper.
A player of mine playing a gunlugger - "So now that I took infinite knives, I'm setting up a knife store." Me - "....what?" Him - "Yeah, I figure with no overhead, I'm gonna make a pretty nice profit." Me - "......"

Re: Playing cards for AW? Genius.
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2010, 04:35:02 PM »
It's interesting to me not because of it's application to vanilla AW. I'm not the type to get excited about a simple change in presentation.

It's interesting to me because of the possibilities for card-based hacks. In vanilla AW, you have a fairly limited but fairly static set of moves. You can choose to add one occasionally, but other than that your moves don't change much. A card-based system could facilitate a lot of different variations on that. For instance:

-The fun thing about CCGs is the number of interesting combinations of cards. You could have a great variety of moves, and part of the fun of character creation could be "building your deck". Cards facilitate a large number of moves, because of the way you can manipulate them individually, as opposed to having to deal with long lists of moves in a book somewhere.

-You could add a random element to it, by drawing a certain number of moves from a deck and choosing between those. This could be intended to model the difficulty in choosing the absolute best thing to do in a stressful situation: oftentimes you only think of the best option after the fact.

-You could make it easy and intuitive to lose moves somehow. If I told my Hocus that he didn't have hypnotize any more, until some necessary thing happened, we'd all find that hard to remember. If I can physically jank his card from him, it becomes much more tactile and significant.

We've mostly been talking about character moves, but it could also be interesting for custom threat moves. "There's another guard or something coming around the corner, let's see who it is. :Flips a card: Oh shit, it's one of the crazy mindfuckers, check out what you have to roll to go against him!"


Re: Playing cards for AW? Genius.
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2010, 07:40:59 PM »
For those interested: You could probably make some cards using Arkham Horrors card creation program Strange Eons  http://cgjennings.ca/eons/index.html. I believe there is an option to create entirely customized cards.


I like the general idea of moves printed to cards as well items and whatnot. I have the feeling it will somehow transform the Apocalypse World experience into something new and unanticipated.



Re: Playing cards for AW? Genius.
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2010, 03:09:41 PM »
I can see Judd's point after having a thin about the cards. If I'm getting your point Judd (and it's been a long day at work), it could be stifling in that players may stick quite rigidly to the cards rather than playing their character.
John

Re: Playing cards for AW? Genius.
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2010, 09:42:55 PM »
I was thinking about this the other day.  It'd be cool to have a custom move contest and then print up the best 54 as individual cards with art in custom playing card decks.  These could then be handed out at conventions each year.  You could probably make them a scavenger hunt as well...

Re: Playing cards for AW? Genius.
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2010, 01:37:52 AM »
I was thinking about this the other day.  It'd be cool to have a custom move contest and then print up the best 54 as individual cards with art in custom playing card decks.  These could then be handed out at conventions each year.  You could probably make them a scavenger hunt as well...

Amazing idea. Very fun.

Re: Playing cards for AW? Genius.
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2010, 09:00:54 AM »
Cards, to me, often get looked over so that players can see their options.  I'm not sure that is what I want from the players when I am playing AW.  I want them acting as their character and us matching the moves to what they do, rather than shuffling through some cards in order to figure out what to do.

Judd, I have to say I'm not with you on that, but maybe I'm not entirely understanding. It is, after all, teh internet. Misunderstandings occasionally happen here.

My take on it: the moves define a good chunk of who my character is and what he/she can do. I choose a special move: eye on the door. It establishes that I'm the kind of guy who bails when it gets tense.

Thinking about moves like that is acting as my character. If I'm a battlebabe, I'm going to make battlebabe-appropriate moves, so I look at my sheet for cues. Isn't that why I have a sheet?

Again, maybe I'm misunderstanding. Except that Brand seems to agree with you, so that makes me think you're wrong about something.
"I don't care what Wilson says." -- some slanderous bastard on the internet