Battle, hard moves, and golden opportunities

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Jeremy

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Re: Battle, hard moves, and golden opportunities
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2012, 10:18:16 AM »
I think in that situation it becomes AID then Jeremy? Rather than the group re-rolling? Lean on their bonds with the 'active' character? Well, at least that's what I'd do.

Not really, or at least not necessarily. Aid to me would be "Hey, Ovid, I remember you telling me a story about some demon prince or another.  With Sir Kit? Does that jog your memory at all?"  I'm talking more about "Hey, do *I* know anything about this?" And it's true, there's no reason why each PC can't consult their accumulated knowledge on a topic, seperately and individually.  Then it ends up being sort of a best-effort situation.  (Heck, you could even fictionally justify everyone Aiding each other's Spout Lore checks, everyone hanging out in their room at the inn and trading stories.)

I mean it's not *that* big of a deal.  Handing out useful pieces of information isn't a bad thing, neither is establishing additional ways they could get that information. Just sorta bugs me.

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Scrape

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Re: Battle, hard moves, and golden opportunities
« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2012, 12:30:09 PM »
I agree with noofy here, the other PCs should Aid, or wait for another opportunity, one that's slightly different. Otherwise we get into cheesy 3.5-everyone-rolls-perception-and-someone-is-guaranteed-success territory. It's not satisfying for the players or the GM and it makes it too game-y. Pulls you straight out of the fiction.

Re: Battle, hard moves, and golden opportunities
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2012, 04:33:50 PM »
Last but not least, there is no "simultaneous rolls" in DW: once a move is engaged, the spotlight is on the player who triggered it. (Am I right?)
Oh, the things we tell ourselves to feel better about the long, dark nights.

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Scrape

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Re: Battle, hard moves, and golden opportunities
« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2012, 05:08:33 PM »
More or less, yeah. I'll often roll a threat from one character to another to keep it flowing well.

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cds

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Re: Battle, hard moves, and golden opportunities
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2012, 01:10:52 AM »
I'm not sure I really understand what's happening if you are Revealing an Unwelcome Truth because someone failed  to Spout Lore.

One possibility is that the consequence of failing the roll is that we introduce inconvenient or disadvantageous facts into the fiction.  For the example with the Ogre, maybe you were Spouting Lore because you wanted to bribe an Ogre guard with food.  If you'd succeeded, then maybe Ogre could be swayed with an offering of a whole cow, but because you failed and we choose to introduce an Unwelcome Truth, we decide that now Ogres mainly subsist on halfling flesh.  Sucks to be you...

Is that what Revealing an Unwelcome Truth is?  Or is that too close to punishing them and Unwelcome Truth is supposed to be something else?

Re: Battle, hard moves, and golden opportunities
« Reply #20 on: September 10, 2012, 05:56:08 AM »
This is where "leave blanks" comes in.   Did you specifically cover the food preferences of ogres as part of your prep?  Would stating that ogres prefer halfling flesh negate or contradict something that's come before in your adventure or campaign?  If the answer to both of these is no, then it's a blank to be filled in as you play, and the GM move is to make the truth of what ogres eat an unwelcome one.

Here's what I dislike about Spout Lore:  because it's the most difficult move for me to respond to on a miss, it could easily become a mine for easy XP.  I've told my players that if they choose to Spout Lore in a situation where they're comparatively safe, then on a miss they are risking spending a significant amount of time trying to recall what they know.  While they are deep in thought, the world will continue to get worse around them, Grim Portents will be advanced, and the effects won't always be immediately obvious if they have chosen to hole up somewhere and do research.

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noofy

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Re: Battle, hard moves, and golden opportunities
« Reply #21 on: September 10, 2012, 06:02:58 AM »
That's a fine example of an Unwelcome Truth cds! You aren't punishing them at all. If you revealed that truth and then said that the Ogre gobbles the halfling up with out a by your leave, well.... that's not really being a fan of the characters is it?

Saying however that the Ogre looks down at the halfling with undisguised, lip smacking abandon and starts sharpening his cleaver ready to chop him into little pieces and then ask "What do you do?" Well, now that's a great GM move.

Remember than an Unwelcome Truth is simply a fact that the players wish wasn't true (not necessarily the characters, but usually them too). So reincorporate what you already know about your Dungeon World and twist it a little. If you a stuck, just ask the players. "Hey, so just say the Ogre guard is swayed by your promise of food, what's the worst thing that could happen?"


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Scrape

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Re: Battle, hard moves, and golden opportunities
« Reply #22 on: September 10, 2012, 11:15:49 AM »
Yeah, I chose that "what do ogres eat?" situation because it's a good example of how to use GM moves on a miss, and choosing one that flows from the game fiction. It's not punishing the players, it's telling them the consequences of a failed roll. As long as it sets up a tough situation, and makes sense fictionally, use whatever GM move you like. The game is designed on a risk/reward system like that, that's why success isn't binary pass/fail.

Re: Battle, hard moves, and golden opportunities
« Reply #23 on: September 10, 2012, 08:53:18 PM »
This is a sweet discussion. I never grokked how to good "Reveal an Unwelcome Truth" could be!

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Scrape

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Re: Battle, hard moves, and golden opportunities
« Reply #24 on: September 11, 2012, 12:30:47 AM »
Yeah, I think that some of the GM Moves don't immediately jump out as, like, "exciting." But when you really think about them and their implications, you realize that they're actually pretty hardcore. What is an unwelcome truth?

That you're being watched? That you underestimated your opponent? That your hireling is a spy? That the giant is immune to fire? That Count Evil is not actually dead? It could be anything and that's pretty rad.

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cds

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Re: Battle, hard moves, and golden opportunities
« Reply #25 on: September 11, 2012, 01:05:38 AM »
So, if my plan has a chest, then a Discern Realities success reveals that it is trapped or not according to what the plan said.

If the plan doesn't tell me if the chest is trapped (or possibly the chest wasn't even part of the plan because I'm filling in blanks) then if they miss and I choose to reveal an Unwelcome Truth, then I determine which state is unwelcome (probably that it is trapped) and now the chest is in that state and I tell them that.

If the plan doesn't tell me if the chest is trapped and they get a hit, then I still have to determine if the chest is trapped, but I don't necessarily choose the unwelcome state.  I probably make a choice based on what makes sense or what makes the best story or some similar criteria.

Am I on the right track here?

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Scrape

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Re: Battle, hard moves, and golden opportunities
« Reply #26 on: September 11, 2012, 01:26:10 AM »
Yeah, that makes some sense. I might not even ask for Discern Realities there. Like, in order to Discern they have to do something which includes messing around with the trapped chest. So I might have them just straight engage the trap and ask them to deal with it before it releases on them.

But yeah, you can Reveal an Unwelcome Truth by building on the fiction any time you can make a move. You can also trigger the trap (deal damage) or engage it (tell them consequences or put them in a spot). You have a lot of choices, it's just that Reveal can be a good one for Discern because sometimes it's hard to like Use Resources or Damage when they're just investigating a room. Whatever makes sense situationally, though.

The idea is, at the heart, just making their lives interesting. On a failed Discern, rather than just be like "nope, you find nothing," you can do something more interesting like "oh man, you'll never guess what's really in here..."

That's how I use it, at least.

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noofy

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Re: Battle, hard moves, and golden opportunities
« Reply #27 on: September 11, 2012, 06:40:41 AM »
Yes Scrape! Exactly - makes their lives full of adventure!
If the chest is in your notes and a macguffin of some note, then its going to make sense in the fiction as to its trapped state. So I usually go with the 'Yes and...' improv lead and play unsafe a little. Remember, that making a GM move is just coda for what most GMs do all the time when its their 'turn' in the conversation. Its just a bit more focused structurally on the co-authored fiction and the list has some excellent cues for you to work with.

If the chest is just made up on the spot by filling in blanks then make any GM move you like, but preferably one that makes the most sense in the fiction. Ask the players, trust them to come up with some cool story stuff and then re-incorporate that like crazy. If it were me, my push would be for this chest...

Re: Battle, hard moves, and golden opportunities
« Reply #28 on: September 11, 2012, 09:19:36 AM »
In which case you run and don't stop.

IT'S NOT WORTH IT
-Jeremiah

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Scrape

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Re: Battle, hard moves, and golden opportunities
« Reply #29 on: September 11, 2012, 08:41:44 PM »
Remember, that making a GM move is just code for what most GMs do all the time when its their 'turn' in the conversation.

YESSSSS

This one post should be stickied at the top of the forum, as the first thing new players see. It's so easy to get caught up with rules details and like, debating a "hard" or "soft" move, and what you can do on a 7-9 and blah blah blah... but when it comes down to it, these are all things we've been doing for years. The List just helpfully lays it all out as a sort of brainstorming guide.

If you've ever GM'd any game, you have Shown Signs of an Approaching Threat, Put Someone in a Spot, or Revealed an Unwelcome Truth. New players often stress out about using them "correctly," but I honestly think that the less you worry about it, the better your game will be. Just let the game fiction flow naturally and if you get stuck for a reply, glance at the list for inspiration.