super dumb combat question

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bpm

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super dumb combat question
« on: September 04, 2012, 05:54:02 PM »
Just played for the second time last night, and something came up during combat that was unclear.  When a player hacks n slashes, a 7-9 means the opponent gets a counter attack.  Makes sense.  But what happens when the goblin attacks our heros, and rolls a 7?  Do the characters get a free counterattack?  Am I messing the entire combat up by even rolling this way for a goblin, as I suspect?

Re: super dumb combat question
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2012, 06:43:13 PM »
No roll.  The DM doesn't ever need to roll.  The monster just attacks (damage or other things listed in their description).

Re: super dumb combat question
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2012, 07:06:26 PM »
Basic, Special and Class moves are just for the players. The GM has GM moves, Dungeon Moves, Monster Moves and Danger Moves. Are you not clear on how these work?
Oh, the things we tell ourselves to feel better about the long, dark nights.

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Scrape

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Re: super dumb combat question
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2012, 12:07:54 AM »
Yeah, combat doesn't work that way in DW. The GM never rolls, only the players do. Here's something I wrote for another forum, explaining how combat works in Dungeon World:

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Dungeon World Combat For Total Beginners, pt 1
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Dungeon World is an awesome game! It's the most fun I've had in years of gaming, partly because it rethinks all the rules behind a dungeoncrawl adventure. A lot of new GMs and players are confused by the way DW handles combat in particular, because it keeps the storygaming focus and doesn't break the action down into turns or rounds or whatever. I am by no means an expert, and I'm not affiliated in any way with the creators, I'm just a guy who has been running a really fun campaign and I want to share some things that I've learned, in hopes that other groups will pick up and understand this awesome, awesome game.

A lot of people are confused when they first see the *World games. The GM doesn't roll dice, instead they "make Moves." One of their Moves is Deal Damage, does that mean that on their turn, the GM says, "Um, the orc hits you for 5 damage"? No, it doesn't. You're not being arbitrary here, it's just that the players' dice decide the outcomes of all your moves.

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Here's how combat flows in Dungeon World, very simply:
1. You narrate the beginning of your NPC's action
2. The player responds to your action
3. If that response triggers a move (it usually does), the player rolls
4. You narrate the conclusion of the action, based on the player's reaction or result of their rolls

Here's an example:
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GM:"The orc swings his club down at you. What do you do?"
PC:"I knock it aside with my warhammer and smash his skull!"
GM:"Sounds like we're doing some Hack & Slash, roll for it."
PC:"I got an 8, that's a partial success, yeah?"
GM:"Yeah, you knock the first blow aside, but he's relentless. You're both smashing each other and it's a full-on bloody brawl. We both roll damage for this."

So we're still rolling when we encounter danger or chance, it's just that the PCs are rolling the dice and you're interpreting the results. Combat actually runs really smoothly this way, and it doesn't feel like everyone is just taking turns hitting each other. Instead, it becomes a fluid back-and-forth. Just remember that your job as the GM is to set up a dangerous situation, and call for a response from the players. Let the player's response determine the outcome of the situation that you set up.

"The goblin is lunging at you, what do you do?"
"Once the pillar breaks, the ceiling starts crumbling down above you, what do you do?"
"Those archers begin firing from across the clearing, arrows are whizzing by, what do you do?"
"The ogre raises his club up high, and starts swinging it down at you. What do you do?"
"You raise your shield in time. His hammer clangs against it and he just keeps swinging over and over. He's pummeling your shield, your arm is going numb but you're not injured. Suddenly, he swings low, aiming for your legs. What do you do?"


After you determine the outcome of the player's response, it's the your turn to react again. So the you respond by setting up another dangerous situation, flowing from whatever just happened in the previous move. This will be obvious, usually, because it's the natural extension of whatever is happening in the game. The orc swings his club and the player decides to counterattack, now it's back to you: the orc probably swings again, or tries a different tactic like going for the PC's legs, or he lunges and tries to grapple the PC. Then the player will respond once more, maybe roll some dice, and then it's back to the GM. Back-and-forth, setting up situations for each other and responding to them.

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Scrape

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Re: super dumb combat question
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2012, 12:14:22 AM »
Does that make sense now? The GM never ever rolls dice for monsters; they don't get a "hit roll." Instead, the GM says "the monster starts to attack you, what do you do?"

The player will usually try to counterattack in some way, dodge, or block the attack. Each of those responses will trigger a different move (Hack & Slash, Defy Danger, or Defend).

The player then rolls the dice, and the GM takes that dice outcome and narrates how the action finished.

(I wanna point out that of course the player has more than three options. Those are just the most common ones that come up in combat. They may try to do some crazy stuff; encourage this and look at the Basic Moves list to see if one of the Moves applies.)

Re: super dumb combat question
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2012, 02:04:46 AM »
Scrape, I think your explanation misses on option. I'm new to the game but I think the player may choose not to address the threat at all. In this case, as i understand it, the GM can just deliver a hard move.

The following is AP from the first game I ran:

GM: The princess orders the two guards to grab you.
PC: I kiss the princess and slip the keys off her belt.
GM: Roll tricks of the trade.
PC: 10!
GM: You get the keys without anyone noticing. The guards grab you.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2012, 02:12:02 AM by Nitrosyncretic »

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noofy

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Re: super dumb combat question
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2012, 06:03:39 AM »
Nitro, that's an excellent example of the fiction invoking both moves and consequence.

There is no specific 'combat' mechanics. Just moves for things you do. Sometimes that involves tension with other players and NPCs / monsters, sometimes its even physically combative, but it doesn't 'shift' into something else from the basic paradigm.

Have a conversation, say what you are up to and if it seems like a move: To do it, do it. Snowball the fiction. engage with the mechanics if required, roll some dice, choose some options, make some hard moves in return..... and so on. Its AWESOME.

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Scrape

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Re: super dumb combat question
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2012, 12:32:05 PM »
Yeah, I'm not providing a comprehensive list of combat options. Like I said in my post, those are just some common ones. I think new players need a basic grounding in how the action flows, because obviously the book didn't click with him if he's rolling for NPCs.

Before you start worrying about what it means to "lead with the fiction," get a good grasp of how the rules operate. Understand that your job as a GM is setting up dangerous situations, in and out of combat, and then letting the players respond. If their response triggers a Move, any Move, then they roll the dice and you narrate the result based on it.

If they don't trigger a move, you still narrate based on their action. But you don't roll dice, the players do. Got it?

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bpm

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Re: super dumb combat question
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2012, 09:41:10 AM »
Told you guys it was super dumb! 

Thanks all, this makes SO much more sense now.  Honestly, I think something like that Orc example should be included in the rules, specifically a combat play example (in addition to the longer play example currently there).


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Scrape

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Re: super dumb combat question
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2012, 05:26:09 PM »
Glad I could help. I agree with you, too- the rules should emphasize the flow of action a bit more. It's something that I see a lot of new players having trouble with, and I think it's so different from other games that it needs to be laid out more clearly. In fact, I've written a bunch of combat advice in another forum that you might be interested in. It's a collection of explanations along with tips and tricks I've learned. That link filters just my posts, if you wanna check out just this guide I put together.

A lot of other people posted some really useful and interesting things, too, so you should totally read the whole thing. Tons of good advice and play reports in there, very helpful for new players. Give it a look, it'll help!


« Last Edit: September 15, 2012, 05:41:20 PM by Scrape »