Confused and need help

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Scrape

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Re: Confused and need help
« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2012, 11:35:47 AM »
Yeah, it's weird that it always seemed natural until an alternative is pu out there. It's good to rethink things, that's my favorite part of the *World games!

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stras

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Re: Confused and need help
« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2012, 12:26:59 PM »
Re: Events, Outcomes, Waste, etc.

See, this is actually where my confusion stems from.  The book and these articles are trying to rewrite and add new terms for old things.  This is not meant as an attack against DW or other indy games.  But I don't see the need for it.

Where I started getting confused at was the term golden opportunity (referring to when a player fails a roll).  In the context, it is used as if it was something unique, when really it means "GM do something cool now."  Or in any other game, "The GM takes an action with a monster".  

Sarim, there's a bit here that I'm not sure if the guys drove home (it might be in the linked article).

The difference between a GM move and a golden opportunity is that you can make a move as hard as you like.

This is the difference between a hard and soft move.  In say 'D&D' or another trad game, taking an action with a monster is a soft move followed by a hard move post dice adjudication.  Let me demonstrate.

The traditional monster turn is "X attacks Y, roll to hit, roll for damage, Y roll to escape grapple/being-sucked-Elsewhere/save-vs".

In DW on a 7-9 you may hit the critter, and it 'launches at your throat' or 'throws a fireball at you' and you can defy danger to get out of the way, get an assist from someone tackling you down etc.  This is a soft move.

A hard move means you're hit. Period.  Instead of 'the monster swings' it's 'your collarbone shatters under the mace, roll for damage'.  It can of course be things that affect everyone "the avalanche buries the area, what do you do!?" or a move of any Hardness (including softs) and not just damage  "the earth elemental's hand fuses to solid rock around you! What do you do?".

In general that golden opportunity is a great time to change up the battlefield, flip tables around and so on.  Remember that moves snowball.  So a soft move will prompt a player move, which usually prompts another action.

A hard move may take a number of rolls to resolve (be it via healing, or struggling with fixing the problem).

And finally when everyone pauses and looks at you like 'what next' start with a soft move "the goblin leader steps forward, glares, and throws his spear over your whole squad in a challenge!  What do you do?"

Hope that helps! :)

Re: Confused and need help
« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2012, 01:13:11 PM »
The traditional monster turn is "X attacks Y, roll to hit, roll for damage, Y roll to escape grapple/being-sucked-Elsewhere/save-vs".

In DW on a 7-9 you may hit the critter, and it 'launches at your throat' or 'throws a fireball at you' and you can defy danger to get out of the way, get an assist from someone tackling you down etc.  This is a soft move.

This is an interesting example, because I thought that with Hack and Slash a 7-9 response was "you were hit".

I suppose one way to look at it is that in a Hack and Slash situation where you're faced off against a foe, circling around and trading blows, the soft move is already assumed. So the 7-9 is a hard response "his jab back gets under your guard, take 1d6 damage".

But there could be situations where a new person moving into a hack and slash it wouldn't make sense to respond with a hard move. Say the foe is busily engaged with the fighter and the bard is at the foe's back and makes a slash at the guy's legs. 7-9 the guy goes down but the bard now has threat. The bard can continue hacking(7-9 = damage) or defy danger to try to get away from the threat.

Does that sound about right?

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Scrape

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Re: Confused and need help
« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2012, 02:34:15 PM »
This is how I read it: On a 7-9 Hack & Slash, you get to move against them. That attack can take any form the GM wants. Sure, you can simply deal damage but it's just as valid to say "you drive your sword into the ogre's stomach and it stumbles back from you, your weapon stuck in its gut. You can leap in to retrieve it, but the ogre is swinging wildly in pain and its fists are as big as your head..."

In this case, instead of damage you have Taken Away Their Stuff and set them up to Defy Danger maybe. Stuff like this keeps the battles real and not just trading damage. As long as the 7-9 is fundamentally a success, but with a cost, it's legit. The cost is whatever you say it is.

Re: Confused and need help
« Reply #19 on: August 23, 2012, 05:11:22 PM »
We were talking about this some time ago. Maybe it's helpful.
Oh, the things we tell ourselves to feel better about the long, dark nights.

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stras

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Re: Confused and need help
« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2012, 11:14:34 AM »
@Dracones: You are right (as is Scrape right after you) I believe.  The difference is often one of proportion.  You deal damage and you take damage is certainly valid, but it's a scrum.  On a six-minus there is not only the possibility of a disproportionate hit (the ogre hits you with a tree, you go flying, your shield and sword dropped) where there isn't a 'give and take' or even ground in the fiction.  This is of course mitigated by tags and other things which muddles a perfectly clear answer (what if you're hit, but the monster has Forceful? Wouldn't you go flying then?  Well yes so long as the fiction isn't 100% opposed, but that's not the default case).

But on a 7-9 hack-and-slash you wouldn't for example collapse the ceiling, or light the room on fire.

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Scrape

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Re: Confused and need help
« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2012, 06:24:59 PM »
This is a good point; the soft move vs. hard move of 7-9 vs. 6-. Is this something explicit in the rules or is it intuited from the rest of the game? As far as I recall, the Hack&Slash text just says that the monster gets an attack either way. I mean it seems like a 6- would be worse but is it spelled out or do I just run with it 'cause it feels right?

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noofy

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Re: Confused and need help
« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2012, 09:11:12 PM »
I think its important to remember the basic move paradigm in these sorts of dissemination. To constantly add qualifications to each and every move on what could happen on a Strong Hit, Hit with complications or a Miss is unwieldy and actively works against the story-now ethos of DW.
The result of the roll falls into three categories: a 10+ is a strong hit. A 7–9 is a weak hit. A 6- is a miss.
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Strong hits and weak hits are both hits. A hit means the character does what they set out to, more or less. A strong hit means they do it without much trouble or complications. A weak hit means complications and unpleasantries.
Sometimes, a weak hit will mean you need to make a hard decision about what to do next. The move will always say what to do for a strong and weak hit.
A miss means that the character's action is unsuccessful or carries major consequences. Unless the move tells you what to do, all moves work the same on a miss — the GM takes action, doing something dangerous to the characters.
p.11

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When you make a move what you're actually doing is taking some element of the fiction and bringing it to bear against the characters. Your move should always follow from the fiction, and you never speak its name. Instead describe the fictional actions that take place which follow from the situation established.
p.127

Thus with Hack and Slash you can expect a hard move - major consequences and unpleasantries - injected into the narrative from the GM if you miss (which could be dealing damage and/or having one of the monster's attacks fictionally take effect, or it could be some other HARD move, so long as it follows from the fiction). Suck it up chump, you missed remember?

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Scrape

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Re: Confused and need help
« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2012, 11:45:11 PM »
@Sarim Rune: I'm not sure if you're still following this thread, but I thought of some other advice that might help out a new Dungeon World GM. This is about triggering moves.

Players have a lot of options in DW, unlike some other games where there are only a few types of attacks, or specific rules for Dodging instead of Parrying or whatever. In Dungeon World, the PCs' actions should be based in the game fiction, and that means that they can try anything they want; they don't have to pick a move from the list, nor are they limited to moves that are listed. Sometimes the PC will do something during combat that doesn't trigger a move at all, like attacking a helpless or surprised enemy- that's not Hack&Slash, they just get to deal damage.

Sometimes it can be hard to figure out which move(s) to use, or what order to use them in. This is okay! Go with your gut and use what works at your table. Listen to what the player narrates, but also how the action is described, and that will give you an idea of which moves to call for. Sometimes you might ask a player to Defy Danger right before rolling a Hack & Slash; sometimes you might decide that the "danger" is part of the Hack & Slash, so the PC will only roll one move.

Every case is different, but one thing is the same:
You set up a situation and see how the player responds.
If the player's response clearly triggers a move from the list, then you call for that move and the results will tell you what happens.
If the player's response is clearly calls for a move but you're not sure which one, ask for more details and make a call. Defy Danger is a good place to start.

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Scrape

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Re: Confused and need help
« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2012, 11:58:04 PM »
Here's an example of a move triggering and a move not triggering, entirely based on fictional positioning.

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Example 1
GM: "The goblin archer starts firing at you from across the room. What do you do?"
PC: "I dive for cover behind the pillar!"
GM: "Sounds like Defy Danger, roll +DEX to avoid the hail of arrows."

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Example 2
GM: "The goblin archer starts firing at you from across the room. What do you do?"
PC: "I dive for cover behind the pillar!"
GM: "That's the one you were leaning on, right? So you're like right next to it? Yeah, you can duck behind it no problem. Arrows are flying past you like crazy, though, so getting out will be tough."

That's just an something I came up with off the top of my head; it's not like the PCs are expected to describe exactly where they're standing or something. But it's an example of not triggering a move because you've decided that there's no need to roll, given the circumstances of the game fiction.

It's helpful for the players and the GM to think of the game fiction first and the moves afterwards; I find that my players sometimes pick up the dice when they don't need to and I'm like, "No, you caught him totally off-guard and he's unarmed, don't bother rolling for Hack & Slash."

Maybe you'll find this useful, maybe not!

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noofy

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Re: Confused and need help
« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2012, 12:37:51 AM »
I like the way you think (and DM) Scrape! Spot on advice and clear examples of how the DW conversation could go :)

Re: Confused and need help
« Reply #26 on: August 27, 2012, 07:06:30 PM »
I know when I first read DW I was like "how is there no initiative for combat??". But then what rpg has initiative for social interactions?


Diaspora actually. The designers extended the "opposed rolls, maneuvers and consequences on a zone map" FATE combat and ported it directly to social conflicts and murder mysteries.