Level Cap

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Max

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Level Cap
« on: June 06, 2012, 08:31:01 AM »
In the new main rulebook, is the level cap 10th or 20th?

I heard it was probably going to be 20th, now I hear it's going to be 10th.

That would make it more difficult to plan the old d&d classic modules/adventures.

Any advice?

Thank you

Re: Level Cap
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2012, 09:06:31 AM »
If by "the new rulebook" you mean the actual rulebook, then level 10 is the cap, yes.

But don't be fooled: level 10 in this game it's not the same level 10 on a D&D game.

Just look at the stats of the monsters:
Dragon: Bite (2d10·b+5 damage 4 piercing) 16 HP 5 Armor

And the stats of an hypotethical 1st level vanilla sword & shield fighter with 15 CON:
Damage 1d10+1/+2 piercing, 25 HP, 3 Armor

Backed up by a magic missle-blasting wizard for 2d4 damage/ignores armor, that dragon eventually is going to fall—even if it's going to inflict A LOT of damage. Still we're talking about a badass element-breathing giant ancient chromatic dragon. Imagine just what they are going to do to this poor dragon at level 10. That's when comes in handy the apocalypse dragon:

Bite (2d10·b+9 damage 4 piercing) 26 HP 5 Armor

And here we're talking about the Alduin from Skyrim, the Jörmungandr from norse mythology whose poison will kill Thor during the Ragnarok.

Damn, this game it's so epic I wish I could play 7 times a week.

So, all this just to explain that: 10 levels in DW are relatively the same thing of the 20 (or 30) levels in D&D. It's just a different* pacing to reach the same goals.

*read: way more funny
Oh, the things we tell ourselves to feel better about the long, dark nights.

*

Max

  • 62
Re: Level Cap
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2012, 09:21:13 AM »
Interesting

I hope there is advice on pacing, that would be cool

But a game where I the GM don't have to roll dice, and so can concentrate on telling a good story?

I'll have some of that!

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noofy

  • 777
Re: Level Cap
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2012, 10:02:23 AM »
Adam has the right of it. Levels in DW have evolved somewhat too Max, and what they mean both mechanically and fictionally. They only apply to Player Characters now and are - as pointed out - a wonderful gauge of pacing as players achieve their goals and resolve bond agendas.

I would say that moves maketh the game (both player and GM), so when you think stats and crunch, think of PCs and antagonists defined by their moves. By level 10, (in addition to raising stats) a PC will have chosen another 9 advances! The story potential and blatantly obvious flagging in these moves is priceless to your game. Play at these levels is rather synergistic and satisfying in an intoxicating sort of way.

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Max

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Re: Level Cap
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2012, 10:14:24 AM »
And at the end of the day, it's the story that's important, not the rules.

Re: Level Cap
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2012, 10:20:31 AM »
And at the end of the day, it's the story that's important, not the rules.

What we've tried to do with Dungeon World is blend the edges of "story" and "rules" so that they're friends who like to hang out and do stuff and most of the time you can't really tell them apart.

Re: Level Cap
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2012, 10:23:52 AM »
Yes. But keep in mind that in this game, the rules support the story—even more, they actually stimulate the creation of a good story by both the players and the GM. EVERY rule seems to be here just to improve the fiction one way or another. Gee, I'm becoming a freakin' fanboy.

edit: simultaneous post with adam. I need to change my nickname.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2012, 10:34:59 AM by adam »
Oh, the things we tell ourselves to feel better about the long, dark nights.

*

Max

  • 62
Re: Level Cap
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2012, 04:05:23 PM »
So if the levelling is very different to d&d, what would be the advice, just go with the module story and don't worry about level scaling?

Re: Level Cap
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2012, 04:55:52 PM »
I think you're really going to have to tailor the monster power to your group. For example a group of level 2-3 min/maxer players against that dragon could drop it in 3 blows.

Warrior with merciless attacks, Paladin on quest with setup strike attacks and buffs warrior +1d4, Cleric heals warrior(and gives +2 damage), Bard arcane arts on warrior for another +1d4 damage, Warrior with merciless, scent of blood and other buffs will now do d10 + 4d4 + 2 excluding any other damage perks.

On average the above 3 blows would do a total of 16.5 damage against an armor 5 opponent with the warrior being healed 1d8 to 2d8(possibly more). And there are a lot of other combos that could be used. Wizard can empower a fireball, thief can specialize in backstabs and so on.

But on the flip side you could have a level 5 party that just isn't slotted for piercing armor or setting each other up and they'd really struggle against that fight.

So you'll really need to tailor things to your party. For module conversions I'd focus on the story behind the module and heavily adjust as needed. The nice thing is that DW is really easy to tweak. If your party is the NBA dream team you can always increase the hp on the enemies or just harry them and knock down resources before they hit that final foe.

Re: Level Cap
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2012, 08:44:44 PM »
Guys, I don't know if I'm the best one to explain something like this, but I'll give it a shot.

There's no "mix/maxing" in Dungeon World. The raw strenght of a character isn't his damage output or his HPs. When you choose your advanced moves, you're just deciding in what field you want to play and be heroic, but they are all at the same level. So even when a party with very low damage output faces The Apocalypse Dragon, it just means that they are going to bring him down with different methods than stabbing him to death. Maybe the Fighter can ask his heirloom weapon how to defeat the monster once and for all. Or the Wizard could make a ritual to enchant a dragonslaying spear. A Paladin isn't strong because of his damage, he is strong because I Am The Law and Quest are wonderful, versatile moves. Even just a well placed Spout Lore can do the trick. Monsters are not just sacks of HPs waiting to be emptied. They are an all around challenge created by the GM, but are the players, using their characters as vehicles, the ones who invent a solution. When creating monsters and converting an adventure, just stick to the rules and everything will go fine!

When in my previous post I reported some monsters stats I didn't do it because characters are actually going to damage out every monster; quite the contrary! Indeed, the best tactic against a dragon surely isn't charge it and hope to kill it before it kills you!

It's already been said: everyone should read this post before playing and thinking about monsters.

I never balance monsters to the current party I'm GMing. It's a problem of the players to defeat them, it's their contribution to the story to find an heroic way to do it! :D My duty is to make monsters 1) live 2) fantasy 3) faithful to what they are in the setting, following the rules DW provides. Luckily, not only DW has plenty of space for a player to be creative, but it actually drives the players to invent and create! So it's not a matter of "oh god now I have to come out with something both creative and powerful". It's just, "what's the most obvious thing my character would do in this situation? Ok, let's see if it works!" And usually this works like magic because chances are, what you believe being the most obvious thing your character would do, it's actually a creative and useful thing to build the story!

Ok, maybe I ranted a bit, but I had a point. Somewhere.
Oh, the things we tell ourselves to feel better about the long, dark nights.

*

Max

  • 62
Re: Level Cap
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2012, 05:14:54 AM »
And the stats of an hypotethical 1st level vanilla sword & shield fighter with 15 CON:
Damage 1d10+1/+2 piercing, 25 HP, 3 Armor

Backed up by a magic missle-blasting wizard for 2d4 damage/ignores armor, that dragon eventually is going to fall—even if it's going to inflict A LOT of damage. Still we're talking about a badass element-breathing giant ancient chromatic dragon. Imagine just what they are going to do to this poor dragon at level 10. That's when comes in handy the apocalypse dragon:

Bite (2d10·b+9 damage 4 piercing) 26 HP 5 Armor

And here we're talking about the Alduin from Skyrim, the Jörmungandr from norse mythology whose poison will kill Thor during the Ragnarok.

Damn, this game it's so epic I wish I could play 7 times a week.

So, all this just to explain that: 10 levels in DW are relatively the same thing of the 20 (or 30) levels in D&D. It's just a different* pacing to reach the same goals.

*read: way more funny
Sorry but I'm lost here.

What are you saying, low level characters are too powerful for even the most ancient of dragons?

Is there advice in the book for using standard d&d modules?

Re: Level Cap
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2012, 06:38:52 AM »
I'll quote myself.
When in my previous post I reported some monsters stats I didn't do it because characters are actually going to damage out every monster; quite the contrary! Indeed, the best tactic against a dragon surely isn't charge it and hope to kill it before it kills you!

It's already been said: everyone should read this post before playing and thinking about monsters.

In the book, there's an entire chapter dedicated to convert D&D modules to dungeon world.
Oh, the things we tell ourselves to feel better about the long, dark nights.

*

Max

  • 62
Re: Level Cap
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2012, 06:41:45 AM »
I'll quote myself.
When in my previous post I reported some monsters stats I didn't do it because characters are actually going to damage out every monster; quite the contrary! Indeed, the best tactic against a dragon surely isn't charge it and hope to kill it before it kills you!

It's already been said: everyone should read this post before playing and thinking about monsters.

In the book, there's an entire chapter dedicated to convert D&D modules to dungeon world.
Good news!

Thanks

Re: Level Cap
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2012, 08:33:38 AM »
What are you saying, low level characters are too powerful for even the most ancient of dragons?

Personally I think you need focus on the qualities of the monsters, not the stats. The most ancient of dragons might have Scales like Hardened Steel Plates where normal arrows and swords would just bounce right off.

The Necromancer Lich of Korath might only have 10 or 12 hp and no armor, but have the quality of a Living Corpse which makes weapons as effective against him as they would be against an actual corpse. An arrow through the head just wouldn't slow him down any.

Against the dragon the party might have to find the Dread Arrow of Thalis, which was reknowned to be able to pierce any armor and against the lich they might have to figure out ways to totally destroy him. Maybe fire, maybe just bury him alive, maybe they could charm a dragon who's attacks are Messy(would tear the lich from limb to limb), etc.

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Max

  • 62
Re: Level Cap
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2012, 08:37:46 AM »
Ok, so the 'challenge level' of an old dnd module comes not so much from hit points and such, but other variables.