Non-Cleric/Wizard Spellcasters

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Non-Cleric/Wizard Spellcasters
« on: March 07, 2012, 12:07:07 AM »
So, I noticed that players that don't take Wizard or Cleric levels early kinda get behind the curve quickly. Half-Elven Bards seem to always have to be at least one level behind their fellow Bards.

This kinda bothers me, as, a player that wasn't playing close attention can end up with a much weaker Advanced Move than someone who just got theirs in a different order. Also, because levels get further apart, a level 4 Paladin must be "stuck in their ways," because they only get a Cleric Spell level after 40 more XP, instead of a level 2 Paladin who would get a Cleric level after 20 more XP.

Also, Fighters don't have this restriction, but Bards share it.

I think I'll ignore this in my game, or just give people a catch-up mechanism, like, every 10 XP they get another Wizard/Cleric level until they come within one of their own level.

Re: Non-Cleric/Wizard Spellcasters
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2012, 04:13:14 AM »
But don't the characters that take spellcasting levels later have a bunch of cool non-casting moves to be badass with? They're not really "behind the curve" unless you just comparing them with the respective spellcasting class only on the basis of spallcasting. By that comparison, yeah, they'll always be behind.

On the plus side, they have more hp, better damage dice and other awesome class moves.

Re: Non-Cleric/Wizard Spellcasters
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2012, 08:21:53 AM »
Sorry if I wasn't clear, Archangel, but I was trying to compare Paladins amongst Paladins, and Bards amongst Bards. I wasn't comparing them to Wizards or Clerics.


For instance:

Octavia the Paladin
Level 2: takes Smite Evil
Level 3: takes Regalia
Level 4: takes Charge!
Level 5: takes Divine Favor

Octavia, Level 5: Smite Evil, Regalia, Charge!, and can cast level 1 Cleric Spells.


Lex the Paladin
Level 2: takes Divine Favor
Level 3: takes Regalia
Level 4: takes Charge!
Level 5: takes Smite Evil

Lex, Level 5: Smite Evil, Regalia, Charge!, and can cast level 4 Cleric Spells.

Lex > Octavia because Lex took Divine Favor earlier.

Re: Non-Cleric/Wizard Spellcasters
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2012, 12:33:55 PM »
So, wait -- what's the problem? First, Lex has been practicing cleric spells longer, so he's better at them than Octavia -- what's the harm?

More importantly, second, this will never be an issue because there aren't ever two paladins in a group anyway. So, at the player's option they will either have a high powered Lex or a lower powered Octavia. Who is Octavia "catching up" to?

No?

A.

Re: Non-Cleric/Wizard Spellcasters
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2012, 01:26:05 PM »
Yes, but Octavia has been getting the bonus from smiting evil for all those levels and Lex hasn't. Perhaps LEx's focus on spells at the expense of combat abilities has meant that he's had to make a deal with death at some point along the way? Perhaps he lost friends and allies because he wasn't a strong enough warrior?

You're right, Octavia will never catch up to Lex, but that's the choices they made at  second level. *W is about nothing if it's not about choices.

*

sage

  • 549
Re: Non-Cleric/Wizard Spellcasters
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2012, 02:13:47 PM »
Adam and I have gone back and forth on this. Our opinion at this point: the moves that let you take another class's spellcasting are mostly there to handle when you're missing that class OR when that is central to your idea of the character.

If you always get the same benefit (say, your spellcasting level is your level-1) then that is an amazingly powerful move at high levels. You take that as your 10th level move and you can now cast spells nearly as well as the 10th level Cleric, just by taking one move. That's pretty killer.

On the other hand, at low levels, being anything more than a level behind is a huge deal.

Like Anarchangel said, it's a choice. If you take that move right off the bat you'll be almost on par with the class you imitate. If you take it later on you'll just dabble (but you will already have access to other cool abilities that you would have had to put off to be a caster). Both of those are fine options.

Re: Non-Cleric/Wizard Spellcasters
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2012, 02:41:07 PM »
For Multiclass Dabbler, it lets you take one move from another playbook.  It seems like you'd need both Prepare Spells/Commune and Cast a Spell for wizardry, yet, you only get one Multiclass Dabbler.  Is it possible to take spell casting?

*

sage

  • 549
Re: Non-Cleric/Wizard Spellcasters
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2012, 02:43:23 PM »
We need to justify the Multiclass story with the other moves that specifically grant you spellcasting. I think Multiclass should still count the prepare/cast moves as one.

Re: Non-Cleric/Wizard Spellcasters
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2012, 02:54:22 PM »
Personally, I think I'd like to see something like:

Ordained (Paladin)
You have received clerical training.  You may now take Commune and Cast a Spell.  For purposes of casting spells, your level is equal to the number of times you take this advance.

Latent Magic (Bard)
An ancient and subtle magic runs deep in your family tree.  You may now take Prepare a Spell and Cast a Spell.  For purposes of casting spells, your level is equal to the number of times you take this advance.

That way its easy to get access to 1st level spells in order to gain access to basic magics/rotes and make your character cool but serious multi-classing requires that you split your advances between class moves and casting moves.  It also fits the idea of "dabbling" by encouraging a little magic but inhibiting high level powers.

*

sage

  • 549
Re: Non-Cleric/Wizard Spellcasters
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2012, 03:15:41 PM »
I don't know, that's  huge investment to get much out of it. But we'll think about it.

Re: Non-Cleric/Wizard Spellcasters
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2012, 04:47:40 PM »
Yikes! The way that reads (and this is perhaps not your intention, Marshall) is tyhat you need three advances to prepare and cast spells even before you start buying extra "levels" of casting?

If the move gave you Prepare and cast as part of the move, then each time you bought the advance it bought you a new "tier" of spells (so two advances and you're casting level 3 spells. 3 and you have level 5, etc), that might work. With a cap on the spell levels at your own level -1 or something.

Re: Non-Cleric/Wizard Spellcasters
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2012, 04:55:22 PM »
Sorry if that wasn't clear, I adjusted to be more clear.  The idea is that you get both moves and cast level 1 spells and rotes when you take the move.  If you take it two more times you cast level 3 spells and so on.

Ordained (Paladin)
You have received clerical training.  You now gain Commune and Cast a Spell.  For purposes of casting spells, your level is equal to the number of times you take this advance.

Latent Magic (Bard)
An ancient and subtle magic runs deep in your family tree.  You now gain Prepare a Spell and Cast a Spell.  For purposes of casting spells, your level is equal to the number of times you take this advance.



Re: Non-Cleric/Wizard Spellcasters
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2012, 08:58:54 PM »
I suppose I'd just be sad if it somehow went unnoticed, and a player thought, "Oh man! I should have got this earlier!" That can be solved by just speaking up.

I agree it's weird for someone to instantly get 9th Level Cleric Spells, but then, it would be fun to justify in the plot. Also, I did mention a "catch up," mechanism where they would at least gain levels as fast as someone else.

We don't need to compare a Paladin to a Paladin that are both in the same game. If I were a player, though, I would certainly compare who I am with what I "could be." This would bother me personally, as a player, if I didn't notice it. Maybe I'm the only one with that OCD, but, as a player, I'd be sad I couldn't hit the "reset," button on my character... but then, I have min/max tendencies :P

And, there's still the issue of a Half-Elven Bard not being as good at magic as a Human Bard could be... which seem unintentional.

I think I'll just house-rule my way around this one if it comes up, no big deal.

*

sage

  • 549
Re: Non-Cleric/Wizard Spellcasters
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2012, 11:57:45 PM »
I don't like the idea of having to trade too may moves to have spells. Maybe two moves at most (one for 1 and 3, one for 5, 7, and 9), but our vision is for multiclassing to not be too painful.

That said, it's easy to adapt, as has been pointed out.

Re: Non-Cleric/Wizard Spellcasters
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2012, 02:24:58 AM »
We don't need to compare a Paladin to a Paladin that are both in the same game. If I were a player, though, I would certainly compare who I am with what I "could be." This would bother me personally, as a player, if I didn't notice it. Maybe I'm the only one with that OCD, but, as a player, I'd be sad I couldn't hit the "reset," button on my character... but then, I have min/max tendencies :P

As far as I know, there's nothing in the rules that says a GM can't allow a character to rearrange their advances. If I had a player in this situation, I'd probably give them an option to switch around their abilities in some period of downtime.

"Hey guys, Octavia went to a distant monastery and became more attuned to her God!"

I'd also allow a character to be a half elf without taking that move (which personally, I don't think is that great anyway).