Questions and feedback

Hi guys,

I'm a new forum member and this is my first topic (long topic, btw).

(Obs: I'm from Brazil and english isn't my native language so forgive me for misspelling or other minor mistakes in my writing).

I recently got my hands at DW Beta 1.1. I read it and got some questions / feedback I would like to share with you for debate in this forum.

I've numbered the questions/feedback for easy reference.

1- Where’s the Druid? He is an iconic and classic epic fantasy character.

2- What happens if a character has more than score 18 on an attribute (by leveling up)? Is it possible? Which will be the correspondent modifier?

3- I liked the changes about how to earn XP, but I think that the "end of session move" shold give players 1 xp for free (automatic, after all the world is fantastic and characters lifes are full of adventure - by the GM's Agenda).
And the "Did we defeat a notable monster or enemy?" line could be replaced by: "Did we faced some danger (monster, enemy, trap, threat, calamity...)?"

4- Why “Last Breath” Move don’t use Constitution Modifier? It makes sense, since Constitutions means your health, stamina and vigour.

5- Why “Carouse” Move don’t uses Charisma modifier? It makes sense, since the results are obviously social, and Charisma Stat means “The character's force of personality and charm. Used for social moves.”

6- I think Bard’s Fascinate move is too weak, and would be better like this to escale in higher levels: On a 10+ a number of targets equal to your level+3. (…) On a 7-9 a number of targets equal to your half-level+1 (…).

7- Cleric’s Penitent move is too weak on higher levels, and would be better like this: “When you take damage and embrace the pain, you may take +your level damage. If you do, take +1/2 level forward to Cast a Spell.”

8- Fighter’s Signature Weapon base weapons didn’t match the equipment list on page 101. Axe, Hammer and Spear are all 1 weight, not 2.

9- Why limit the Fighter’s Signature Weapon list to only those? Why you can’t choose any weapon you’d like to be your signature weapon?

10- I didn’t understand the “Choose a range” on Fighter’s Signature Weapon. It means you can use your weapon with another additional range?

11- And about meele weapons ranges, what happens if one character is using a hand range weapon agains another with a close or a reach weapon? He's Defying Danger?
 
12- The Fighter’s Signature Weapon Enhancements aren’t balanced. Why should I pick “Hooks and Spikes” instead of “Serrated Edges”? And “Shape” +2 piercing is too powerful, +1 would be better (the rules in the chapter 12 say that +1 is the realm of mundane, more than that is magical).

13- The Fighter has few Advanced Moves from level 6-10, and they aren’t very useful. “Charge”, “Staunch Defender”, “Setup Strike”, “Weapon Specialization” and “Hamper” moves from Paladin would be great for a Fighter too.

14- I think Thief should consider the Dagger as a Precise Weapon as an initial Move. It’s very iconic a thief using a dagger to backstab.

15-Why Backstab uses Strength modifier instead of Dexterity?

16-Why the Wizard doesn’t have Moves equivalent to Cleric’s “Serenity”, “Penitent”, “Vicious” and “Providence” Moves?

17- Wizard’s Spell list is lacking some damaging spell. It has too few spell to inflict damage.

18- Equipment Tag Glossary has a “Reload” Tag, but no weapon that uses it. Wouldn’t it be used for Crossbows?

19- What “Awkward” and “Messy” Tags really means in mechanics terms? Why don’t they look like “Clumsy” Tag description?

20- Where’s the “Masterwork” (gives +1 armor or +1 ongoing to “Hack and Slash” or “Volley”) Tag? (I remember reading about a "masterwork" dagger somewhere in the text)

21- Why don’t list Crossbows in equipment’s lists? It’s great and iconic for Dwarves and Thieves.

22-Why Elven Arrows are so expensive? Should them have the “n piercing” tag?

23- Are Sword, battle axe and flail two-handed? They are much better than short sword, axe, warhammer and mace for only 2 gold and 1 weight more. Wouldn’t it be better with a new “Versatile” Tag. You could use it one-handed or two-handed. If used two-handed it deals +1 damage.

24- I think the Weapons list should do a better use of Tags to differentiate the weapons (it looks like the list is incomplete or it didn't matters much what weapon are you using).

25- I think that 100 Gold for a household month's upkeep is too expensive.

26- Where’s the Horse, Warhorse and other animals in the pricelists (and their stats)?

Well, that's it. I hope you find it useful.

1. We'll get to him sooner or later! We also have a section on making your own class, so maybe you'll make the Druid before we can.

2. 18 is the cap. We'll make that clear.

3. Good suggestions. We'll think about it.

4. As it says in the move "Death doesn't care how tough or cool you are." This isn't about physical survival, it's about forces beyond your control.

That said, you could totally make your own Last Breath move that is +Con.

5. We need to clarify Carouse a bit. It's con because the important thing isn't how much people like you, it's how you can handle a night of revelry. To hear useful rumors you can't be passed out drunk.

6. We're getting rid of fascinate in Beta 2. I actually thought it was too powerful!

7. That's true. We have a solution to that in Beta 2 already.

8. The fighter's special. These aren't just any weapons.

9. Lists are great prompts. Smart players (like everyone who post here) will say "Oh, hey, could this actually be X?" But there should be a list to start with and crazy ideas (beyond the list) should require discussion.

10. Nope, you choose a range to represent what your weapon does. It could be better phrased as "Choose the range the best fits your weapon."

11. That's likely, sure, but it's not a rule. Examples:

Player: "I stab him with my dagger"
GM: "How? He's fighting you off with his sword which is much longer."
Player: "I duck his blows and get inside, then jam the dagger into his gut."
GM: "Sounds like you're Defying Danger first to get close."

Player: "I stab him with my dagger"
GM: "Sure, he's swinging wildly at all of you so he can't keep you away. Sounds like Hack and Slash."

12. Piercing only helps with monsters that have armor. Damage always helps, no matter the armor. Damage is always better.

I don't know where it says that magic items are +2. In fact, by what we meant to write at least, magic items usually aren't +anything. +x is mundane and boring, magic does stranger stuff.

13. We've messed with the high level moves for all classes. See what you think of Beta 2, coming soon.

14. That's worth considering, sure. What about this: Precise or Hand. That allows for lots of classic Thief stuff: blackjacks and the like.

15. Because cutting someone is tough work and Dex is already a very useful stat.

16. Because they're a different class ;) Seriously, the Wizard starts to feel very dull when the only difference between the Wizard and the Cleric is what spells they cast. Penitent in particular is a very Cleric thing: the gods reward penitence, the forces of magic are just forces, they don't care if you're penitent.

17. We'll think about that, but damage is a pretty mundane thing to do with magic. The Wizard already has two of the best damage options (magic missile and fireball) why do they need more? Magic can do all kinds of cool stuff, why just hurt people?

18. Crossbows exactly. We'll have to decide if we want to add back crossbows or remove the tag.

19. Those are mechanical terms. The ability to really cut someone up or drive them back are important things since your moves depend on the fiction. Consider:

Player: Awesome! I hit him with my forceful hammer, 5 damage.
GM: Okay, with a sickening crunch he flies off his feet and lands a pace back, prone. Avon, what are you doing as he gets up?

Player: Awesome! I hit him with my messy axe, 5 damage.
GM: The wounds you open just pour blood. Avon, the wolf that was attacking you backs off a pace and sniffs the are, then dives at him, driven by the sent of plentiful blood.

Player: I swing my warhammer at him!
GM: Isn't that awkward? You can really do that in this narrow tunnel?

20. There isn't a Masterwork tag. There's an example that uses "masterwork" in a non-technical way: a masterwork (meaning very well-made) longsword might have the +1 damage tag, while an old and rusty one might be -1 damage, or awkward, or whatever else.

21. Because we've edited this thing so many times and at some point we lost crossbows. I think they were removed for basic and probably missed when we merged in the basic text.

22. Piercing might be good for them, sure. They're expensive because they're a luxury and those damn elves think they're all so big and important, charging the common person as much as they can...

23. The weight is the big deal. That 1 weight? That's 100 gold you could be carrying right there. Or some more rations. Or a healing potion. They're not two-handed as written. Versatile might be a fine tag, but it also might be more detailed than we want to be.

24. You are correct, it doesn't matter much what weapon you are using. They're deliberately in categories with small but noticeable differences.

Our idea here is that, for Dungeon World, it's much cooler to choose your weapon based on the general type of weapon and what would be cool for your character to have.

25. Maybe we need to clarify "household." A household means servants, valets, maybe even permanent workman. It's a noble thing, not an alehouse thing.

26. Prices for those are probably a good idea.

You don't need stats for riding a horse. It might be worth +1 to Undertake a Perilous Journey though.

For fighting a horse (why would you do that?) you could make its stats like anything else. Poor horse.

Hey Sage, thanks for the answers!

I still have some replyes.

5- Ok, I understood now, but I think a little bit of charisma helps it too.

16- I know, but at least Serenity, Providence and Vicious makes senses for a wizard too.

17- Well, what about Lightning Spell or other classic damaging spells? Only Magic Missile and Fireball, although very good spells indeed, are too few. Magic really can do a lot of stuff, but more (and different) options to inflict damage are great.

If I wanna do a Cold themed wizard? Fireball doesn't makes sense for him.

18- Add Crossbows, please!

20- Your descriptions for it fits a Tag very well.

22- Scumbag Elfs! LoL.

26- I think I didn't express myself well on this. I mean, what my character gets for riding a Warhhorse? how much HP it should have? does it attack with hooves? how much damage it inflicts?

While you're at it with the crossbow, where's that darned sling?
The nice thing about rocks is they're free.  The nasty thing about rocks is they're heavier than arrows and you can only collect them when you make camp...

26. No, that's what I mean too.

The benefits to riding a horse are in how it sets you up for other moves. Something that might normally be a move, like outpacing an angry orc (Defy Danger, most likely, the danger being you get caught), is no longer a move. You just do it.

As for fighting them, I'm really not a fan of having stats for poor mundane animals. The idea of killing a horse gives me a little bit of a sad face. So we're not going to include stats for fighting a horse, but you could certainly make the stats using the monster system.

G'day P2! Welcome, and your english is excellent :)

Sage gives very good answers, and allows you  to see why he and Adam made the choices they did with the game. From my point of view, I have a few answers for you.

16. Make a custom move? Or allow a Wizard to research a Cleric like effect?
17.  There is only so much variation on 'damage dealt' that you can do. The Colour, or narrated fictional effects through 'tags' can be far more influential in your game. Don't forget that the Moves can deal damage too. Sorceror's Sword and Spell Augmentation for instance.
If you want a cold based wizard, just turn fireball into icebolt? Only fictional change is that it is a cloud of ice instead of fire so that target freezes instead of burns?

26. Sage was answering your question! What he means is that players control their character's actions, not  those of the warhorse. There is no need for the GM to have those stats unless you plan to 'fight' the warhorse :)

But if a player wants to ride a warhorse into battle and you can't determine how that effects the fiction,  perhaps you could treat it as a 'tag' to their moves (like you would a weapon or a piece of equipment)?

Whilst riding your warhorse into battle you are: Fast, or flighty, or powerful or vicious?

Don't forget that fighters and Paladins (the obvious classes for warhorses) can choose to be  multiclass dabblers as advanced moves and take the ranger's companion , choosing a warhorse as their animal companion.

Thanks Noofy =)

16- make Serenity, Providence and Vicious as advanced moves for the wizard  (maybe changing the name, but the effects are cool for the wizard class, maybe cooler for the wizard than the cleric, I think)

17- Understood. Change the fiction, keep the rules!

26- I see your point, Sage and Noofy.

You could write a custom tag: Cavelry -Deal +1 damage when user is mounted.

When you take damage while mounted, choose whether you or your mount take the damage.  If you choose your mount, defy danger to stay astride it.

When you fight a horse, roll (just roll, +nothing - yeah, Sage doesn't care how hungry or cool you are).  On a 10+, Sage doesn't notice.  On a 7-9, Sage will offer you a bargain - if you stop fighting the horse you can keep playing but if you refuse sage will take your character sheet away.  On a miss, Sage will cancel Dungeon World for good.

You could write a custom tag: Cavelry -Deal +1 damage when user is mounted.

When you take damage while mounted, choose whether you or your mount take the damage.  If you choose your mount, defy danger to stay astride it.

Good idea. That was I was talking about.

When you fight a horse, roll (just roll, +nothing - yeah, Sage doesn't care how hungry or cool you are).  On a 10+, Sage doesn't notice.  On a 7-9, Sage will offer you a bargain - if you stop fighting the horse you can keep playing but if you refuse sage will take your character sheet away.  On a miss, Sage will take cancel Dungeon World for good.

LoL! I really don't wanna fight a horse, but I was thinking about fighting against a mounted enemy... or if I'm mounted, using my warhorse to trample (run over - I don't know how to say it in english, so I'm using Magic's keyword trample) enemys.

When you ride them down, roll+DEX.  On a 10+, you trample them under hoof (deal Damage+Weight) or choose 2.  On a 7-9, choose 1:
-Make them retreat
-Scatter a group of them
-Break their line
-Knock them to the ground

When you ride them down, roll+DEX.  On a 10+, you trample them under hoof (deal Damage+Load) or choose 2.  On a 7-9, choose 1:
-Make them retreat
-Scatter a group of them
-Break their line
-Knock them to the ground

Cavalier mini-class...?

In fact, I was just bemoaning the lack of cavalier over on Story Games...

That said, I don't think a cavalier is something you just become.  Cavaliers were the fighter pilots of the middle ages - there's a lot of skills and a lot of attitude that go with it.  It would have to be a whole class or a fighter only mini-class.  I don't think any of the current ones are class specific.

I put some more thinking about your answers and:

5- I would like to see at least the bard with the option to use CHA mod on Carouse, as a starter move or advanced (I agree with your answers about the CON mod, but bards are bards, and partying is their deal.)

6- I think “Fascinate” is an important move for the bard. It can be used to entertain the crowd, attracting their attention while other character does something none the wise (maybe the thief trying to pass behind the gate’s guards…). Maybe it is too powerful as a starter move, but you could use it as an advanced move (or even merge it with the “Artful”move).

15- I always thought that the advantages of backstabbing come from the precision of your attack. It isn’t about a strong move, it is where you hit. So you hit the surprised or defenseless enemy in a vital point, and for that you don’t use your STR, you use your DEX to aim for the right spot.

New thoughts:
1- Considering the Mounted moves “Cavalry” (by Mease19) as advanced moves and tag.
Cavalry Tag: Deal +1 damage on melee attacks when user is mounted.

Cavalry Advanced Moves
- When you are mounted on a warhorse and ride them down, roll+DEX. On a 10+, you trample them under hoof (deal 1d8 Damage) or choose 2. On a 7-9, choose 1:
     -Make them retreat;
     -Scatter a group of them;
     -Break their line;
     -Knock them to the ground;
- When you take damage while mounted, defy danger to stay astride it.

2- Can a fighter “Parley” with STR (I know dwarf fighters can parley with CON)?

3- Is the Paladin’s “I am the law” move wrong or I didn’t get it?
"When you give an NPC an order based on your divine authority, roll+Cha. On a hit, they choose one:
     - They do it
     - They back away cautiously, then fee
     - They attack you
On a 10+, you also take +1 Forward against them. On a miss, they do as they please and you take -1 Forward against them."

4- Could “Logical” be a starter move for wizards? It doesn’t like an advanced move for me.

5- I would like to see more "Racial moves"!

The idea of killing a horse gives me a little bit of a sad face.

You know what goes a long way toward preventing PCs from killing horses, barding!  You know you want to include rules for barding!  ;-)

Replies to the new questions:

1. I'm not sure it has a place in the base game, but we might consider it.

2. There's a move for that, yes. It's called "Interrogator" and lets you parley with Str when you use threats of violence as leverage.

3. That all sounds right to me. What doesn't make sense?

4. What doesn't seem advanced about it? As a Wizard your Int is usually your highest stat and Discern Realities is a very useful move, so now you get to do that move with your highest stat.

5. We're probably not adding any more to the base game, we've got plenty. But we've added the section on making your own moves to the newest Beta (coming soon) so hopefully that'll help you make your own.