Help with GM Moves

Hi,

I've just picked up the iOS version of the rules and read through them. So far I'm really impressed, and I'm looking forward to seeing where this goes. However, I am a bit confused about how the GM Moves should work.

I gather they are largely narrative. In that I just describe what happens. But what limits are there on the move. How much control can I take over the PCs. Are there any samples on how these should work--and how (or when) we should move from softer moves to the harder moves?

-Rich-

Hey Rich!
Don't stress about it too much, it is a bit different to the 'GM tells a story' style of play, but as long as you follow the principles (this is REALLY important) you shouldn't break the game. Your moves are fun and what gives you the chance to shine. You don't have to fudge rolls any more, the players can do that all on their own. There is nothing quite so delightful as putting the players in a spot on a 7-9 and seeing where the story goes with a moves snowball.

Here's an example straight from the rules. Hope it helps :)

Another Extended Example
I’m GMing a game with Ben (playing Brianne), Amy (playing Nora), and Dan (playing Rath). They’re in the deepest room of an ancient corrupted temple, retrieving the poison that can kill the troll lord who has claimed the road through the swamp as his own toll road.
The corruption of the temple has been enough to draw a demon to guard the poison. “As the doors swing open a reddish light pours through. You can feel the warmth of the flame-wrapped whip the creature holds before you even from here. It’s nearly twice your height and its entire flesh is deep crimson, even it’s impressive wingspan.”
A demon would certainly be prepared for their assault, but they haven’t given me a golden opportunity, so I have to go with a soft move. “A flaming whip shoots out from its right hand and wraps around Nora’s foot. What do you do?”
I’m looking at Amy, since she seems most likely to respond, but Ben steps in: “’You’re not taken her without a fight, beast’ I say, as I grab the whip with my hand so it can’t pull her back in.”
“It’s on fire. Are you just grabbing it with bare hands?” “No, I’m a fighter. Of course I’m wearing leather gloves.” That’s a little preposterous, but seems to fit well for fantasy, so I run
with it. “Ah, I see. The flames scorch the leather and it’s hot as hell, but you’re not actually hurt. Sounds like you’re Defending Nora?”
“Sure am.” Ben rolls and gets 7 on the dice, +1 for Brianne’s Con, for a total of 8. Ben’s got one hold now.
To keep the conversation moving, I make a move with the demon. “You feel the whip go taught as the monster pulls back on it, dragging Nora in. It’s hard to tell over the crackling flame, but it might be laughing.”
Ben sees a chance to spend his hold and jumps on it. “Oh no it doesn’t! I’m spending a point of hold to halve that.”
“Sounds to me like halving it would mean she gets pulled half way to the monster. Sound good to you?”
“I guess that does make sense, but that’s not what I really wanted. How about this instead: I redirect the attack to me. I fight the demon’s pull for just long enough for Nora to get loose, but as she gets out I loose my feet and go flying across the floor towards the monster.”

“Awesome! Rath, you see Brianne, your faithful defender, go sliding across the scorched marble floor right to the thing’s feet. What are you doing?”
Dan thinks for a second and looks at his moves. “Hm. Rath has a look of fear on his face for a second as he realizes that there’s no one between him and the monster, and his first thought is: what the hell is this thing? Have I heard of anything this like before? I’m Spouting Lore.”
He’s definitely spouting lore, so I just let him carry on. He rolls eleven on the dice, plus his Int, for a total of 14. Dan already knows his first question: “What kind of monster is it?”
I know the answer already, but I want to make sure I haven a fictional response. How does he know what kind of monster it is? I think for a moment and come up with this: “You can feel the vial of holy water you got back in Battlemoore boiling. That’s one of the first demonology experiments you ever did: the presence of a demon boils holy water.”
“Aw, damn. I say ‘Brianne, I don’t think your usual approach will work here, that is most certainly a demon. I’ll protect you.’”
That seems like the point to follow the action elsewhere, but Dan still has questions to ask. “Dan, while you’re thinking of your other two questions, you mind if we see what Brianne’s up to?” Dan’s cool with that, so I turn to Ben: “You’ve got this demon standing over you, it’s foot’s moving to stomp down on you to keep you on the floor. What’re you doing?”
“I roll out of the way!” Ben says. “You’re Defying the Danger of the demon’s stomp, sure.” Ben rolls a 7 on the dice, plus 1 for Brianne’s Dex. I have to come up
with a hard choice. “As you glance at where you’re about to move, you realize you’ve got a clear shot with your fallback dagger at the demon’s foot. Are you stabbing it as it smashes and pins you, or getting out of the way to safety?” Since Brianne has a dagger, she can attack something that’s right on top of her. Her usual spear wouldn’t be any good for that.
“Well, we’ve got to hurt this thing sometime. Brianne starts to move but instead grabs her dagger and holds it straight up, so the demon stomps right on it.”
She’s just stabbed the demon, so Ben rolls damage, no move made. “Okay, it takes your damage, and you take 18 damage as it stamps down on you. All the air is knocked out of your lungs and you can feel your rip cage compressed to the breaking point.”
It’s been a while since we checked in with Nora. “So Nora, Brianne is under the foot of this demon, and it’s ember eyes have turned to Rath. It doesn’t even respond to the dagger in its foot or you. What are you doing?”
“I’ve got my bow in hand and I fire right at the leg holding Brianne down.”
The demon’s awareness of Nora is key now. If the demon is surprised by her attack, it’s a Called Shot. Otherwise it’s a Volley. To make the fictional situation clear I think out loud: “The demon’s pretty cocky, it thinks you’re already beaten, plus it’s focused on Rath. So sure, it’s a Called Shot. But the demon’s not stupid, it won’t be ignoring you again.”
“Fine by me” Amy says. “One shot is all I need.” She rolls and gets 5 on the dice, plus her +3 Dex, for 8 total.
The mechanical effects take place: it’s now easier to Defy Danger and Make a Saving Throw against. There’s also the fictional effect: “Brianne, you feel a thud in the demon’s leg. The demon doesn’t let on, but it’s weakening.”
I don’t want to forget about Dan’s questions, so I come back to him. “What else does Rath want to know about this demon?”
“First, how effective is throwing holy water on it likely to be?”
“You’ve only got the one bottle, right? Back in the wizarding college you’d use a bottle of holy water to get a demon off balance, but a lot more holy water or a powerful spell is needed to really defeat it.”
“Okay, in that case, how can I get it to return to hell?”
“All every demon wants is to corrupt mortal souls. Give it one as a prize and it will return to hell.”
“I’m evil but I’m not that evil. I start making arcane gestures, focusing up my stolen power into a Hold Person spell onto the demon.” That’s pretty clearly Cast a Spell, so Dan rolls and gets 10 on the dice, plus his Int of 3 for a 13 total.
“The demon freezes in place, and this is the first time you’ve heard it talk. ‘Mortal scum. I can see your entire souls laid bare before me.

As soon as this enchantment breaks I will find you and make you suffer for this indignity.”
“If it’s frozen can I get out from under it?” Ben says.
“Sure. It takes some squeezing, but you’re out and the demon’s frozen still as a statue. What are you all doing?”
“Well, we can’t leave this thing here” Dan says. “As soon as I leave it’s free. We can attack it, but I’m not sure we can kill it in one blow, and that’ll free it too.”
Looks like a tough decision. I hope they figure it out.

That helps some, but not a lot.

I get the style of play, and I'm not coming to this straight from a D&D background.

I guess I'm hoping for a sense of the scope of what I--as the GM--can do with the different moves, and how I can use the moves to further the story.

For example, how much control can I take over a PC when I narrate a move? Could a monster "charm" a PC and force him to attack the other party members? Can I immobilize a PC or just declare that he is knocked unconscious? If a monster can deal 5 points of damage--is anything up to and including 5 points fair game? Could I have the monster do a series of soft moves that lead up to a more-severe attack (For example, a dragon inhaling deeply in preparation for a breath attack which does more damage than the normal attack).

A lot of these seem like bad options to me. As a GM, I never like to take away player's choice or control. Sometime's it's necessary (e.g. if the main protagonist has mind control powers). Even rendering a player unconscious removes choice. That's worse than mind control--there's nothing the player can do. They're out of the game until they wake.

I think that you should continue to give the player choices (with consequences) for as long as possible. So my instincts say that the amount of control I can take away should increase as my moves harden--with complete control only taken away at the end of a series of moves.

OK, let's look at a more specific example. In the sample, it seems like the Demon does two things at once when it stomps on the PC. It both damages the PC and it pins the PC. One is mechanical, one is narrative.

Can moves have multiple effects? If so, how many should (or can) I use?

Take the example of an Ogre being able to "Hurl someone away." In combat, the Ogre backhands the fighter, tossing her away.

Could I say that she flies back into the corner, her sword clattering away into the shadows as she lands. (2 effects--putting her on the ground and out of combat, while also removing her resources).

Could I also have her take damage from the hurl?

Could I say that she's stunned, and has a negative modifier going forward?

How much is appropriate? How many effects can (or should) a move have?

I guess I'm looking for rules of thumbs for how soft or hard the effects can be, and what sort of effects are permissible at different points in an encounter, and what sort of effects should be avoided at all costs.

Thanks,

-Rich-

OK Rich, thanks for the elucidation and examples. I think I get where you are coming from. When I said follow the principles, I mean these are your guidelines for making moves. Its not so much as what's 'permissable' as what is breaking the intent of these principles. You take as much 'control' as you feel the story needs (without being a dick). You're a fan of the characters remember? Not the aloof antagonist. You want to see them be heroes!

Sage and Adam give good advice in 'Being a Fan'

Being a fan of the characters also means that you want to see them do what they do. Don’t put blocks in their way. Everyone likes challenge, of course, and it’s the best way to see a character truly shine, but don’t rob a character of what makes him exciting and fun to play. If you take away the Wizard’s ability to cast spells for very long the character quickly becomes boring; not someone you’d be a fan of. If they succeed at something let them succeed and make it consequential.

So your moves need a fictional grounding to work, but they are also emminently adjustable to the situation at hand. Make a move, and ask 'what do you do.'  You aren't taking away the player's choices or control, you are focusing them on the situation at hand. Your moves harden as the fiction demands. Remember to always begin and end with the fiction.

Whenever you or a player makes a move start and end with the fictional action. This is especially true of your moves. Your moves never just happen. The players never “just” mark off HP. Start with the fiction. “The skeletal warrior bats away your blade with his shield and drags his rusty scimitar across your exposed skin.” – apply the
move – “You take 5 damage” – and return to the fiction “as the sword leaves a line of blood running down your aching arm, what now?”

Your options on the ogre move to hurl someone away are all valid, though you need an actual fictional 'backdrop' to situate it in. The move has to make sense in the fiction. The fighter has to be close enough to be back handed away, did they miss on a hack and slash? 7-9 on a Defend? perhaps the player's are 'looking at you expectantly in a pause in the conversation'. Whatever. The more fictional or mechanical consequences you impose on a player, the 'harder' the move is. A 'miss' on a roll is a golden opportunity for a hard move. How it manifests in the fiction is part of your role and enjoyment as GM.

'The ogre steps up and back hands you across the room, landing in a heap in the corner. What do you do?' - Soft.
'The ogre steps up and back hands you across the room, landing in a heap in the corner, your sword clattering away into the shadows as you land heavily. What do you do?' - Harder.
'The ogre steps up and back hands you across the room, landing in a heap in the corner, your sword clattering away into the shadows as you land heavily. Your ribs feel like squashed splinters, take 5 damage (ap of course). What do you do?'  - Hard damn move.

In terms of effects, I like to avoid modifiers or hold unless a specific move lists these as consequences. Begin and end with the fiction, its much more direct and embedded in the situation. The severity of your effects as established by the threat at hand depends wholly on the fiction as established. Soft moves set up hard moves. 'Announce an impending doom' is a great soft move for warning the players that if they persist in their current course of action, hard stuff is going to come down on them. Soft moves set up hard moves.

John Harper gives good advice about the 'rules of thumb' for hard and soft moves. Its for AW, but the advice is sound and will really help get your head around your role as GM (MC):

I keep seeing some people struggle with this, so here's a handy guide to hard moves in Apocalypse World.

When you make a regular MC move, all three:
1. It follows logically from the fiction.
2. It gives the player an opportunity to react.
3. It sets you up for a future harder move.

This means, say what happens but stop before the effect, then ask "What do you do?"

- He swings the chainsaw right at your head. What do you do?
- You sneak into the garage but there's Plover right there, about to notice you any second now. What do you do?
- She stares at you coldly. 'Leave me alone,' she says. What do you do?

When you make a hard MC move, both:
1. It follows logically from the fiction.
2. It's irrevocable.

This means, say what happens, including the effect, then ask "What do you do?"

- The chainsaw bites into your face, spraying chunks of bloody flesh all over the room. 3-harm and make the harm move!
- Plover sees you and starts yelling like mad. Intruder!
- 'Don't come back here again.' She slams the door in your face and you hear the locks click home.

See how that works? The regular move sets up the hard move. The hard move follows through on the threat established by the regular move.

I've seen people struggle with hard moves in the moment. Like, when the dice miss, the MC stares at it like, "Crap! Now I have to invent something! Better make it dangerous and cool! Uh... some ninja... drop out of the ceiling... with poison knives! Grah!"

Don't do that. Instead, when it's time for a hard move, look back at the setup move(s) you made. What was threatened? What was about to happen, before the PC took action? Follow through on that. Bring the effects on screen. Bring the consequences to fruition.

And speaking of consequences, a hard move doesn't automatically equate to severe consequences. The severity of the threat is a separate issue, depending wholly on the fiction as established. The hard move means the consequences, large or small, take full effect now.

Hope that helps a bit more? I like to print out my principles and moves (including sopecial monster moves and dungeon moves) on a sheet to reference during play, then if I get stuck, well,  the list is full of good prompts.

Thanks, Noofy. That helps a lot.

I also realized that I actually own Apocalypse World. I'd even started reading it, and was greatly enjoying it, but got distracted near the end of the character packages and never got back to it. So I'm reading through that as well. Things are becoming a lot more clear.

So, let me see if I get this right...

If there's a lull in the action (everyone's looking to me to push things forward), then I should do a soft move.

If the player rolls a 7-9, then (typically) the action's rules should dictate what I do.

If the player rolls a 6-, then I can do pretty much whatever I want as long as it flows naturally from the story and doesn't violate the principles.

Do GMs typically make moves after a character succeeds with a 10+ roll? Or do you move on to the next player at that point? Or does it depend on the situation? It seems to me that I'd often want to show the NPCs reaction to whatever the player just did. I guess that may or may not be a move, depending on the situation.

Basically, I think the "Being a fan of the characters" principle--when interpreted rather broadly--really helps on setting the limits. I'm still a bit uncomfortable with some of the examples--particularly when it comes to things like "dragging someone away", which I've seen mentioned a few times. I guess if it's a PC, I'd only use this as a soft move. The person is in the process of being dragged off--setting up a situation that everyone needs to respond to. Rather than making it a hard move, and having the character simply removed from play without any chance of responding. Of course, if it's an NPC being dragged off--well, then things are different. I don't have to be a fan of the NPCs.

I'm also still a little confused about how many of the actions in the Bloodstone Idol adventure are supposed to work. Especially since most of them don't have any rules or descriptions--just the move name. Without understanding the intent behind the move, the name often isn't enough. Of course, this wouldn't be a problem if I was creating my own adventure and my own moves.

The principles are interesting. Often, when you look at more narrative games, you can tell a lot about the designers bad experiences by how they shape the rules. For example, the principles put a lot of explicit emphasis on things like not railroading the characters. There's a softer, implicit emphasis on not violating the character's integrity, providing the character with interesting choices, and making sure the choices have an impact on the game.

If I'd written them, I'd have put a much more explicit emphasis on the latter, and a much softer emphasis on the railroading/gm story issue. Which, in turn, says a lot about the problems I've had with games in the past.

I also like the description of soft vs hard that you provided. That really makes things clearer. Unfortunately, none of this information is really in the basic rules. Which is a shame. At least for me, it makes it hard to even think about running the game--at least until I did some additional research and became more comfortable with the ideas. I think I'd probably feel comfortable running it now--though how I ran the game and how you ran the game would probably be very different. That's not necessarily a bad thing.

For example, I think I'd often favor -1 forward modifiers (which only affects the next move, yes?) over actual damage to simulate many minor damaging effects--and leave actual damage for when the bad guys really carve a piece out of someone. At least from a theoretical standpoint, I like the way it has a mechanical affect on the action, but it's temporary. It simulates being rattled or stunned by the attack, but the character can still shake it off. Of course, I'd have to see how it actually feels in play....

And, I look forward to seeing the complete rules.

particularly when it comes to things like "dragging someone away", which I've seen mentioned a few times. I guess if it's a PC, I'd only use this as a soft move. The person is in the process of being dragged off--setting up a situation that everyone needs to respond to. Rather than making it a hard move, and having the character simply removed from play without any chance of responding.

Why do you assumed that an PC that is dragged off is removed from play? If I was dragged off, I would definitely do something about it when the GM asked me "what do you do now?"

My advice is make moves that fit the circumstance. If that's dragging someone off, cool. If its a softer move, also cool.

And after every move remember to ask what the character does now.

The iPad app has a good description of soft moves and when to use them in Chapter 9.

Sounds like you have it sussed out Rich! I'd recommend not over thinking it and just play. You'll be fine! :)

With the DM moves in Bloodstone Idol, I assume you mean the ones listed under threats? Well, this is the descriptive and therefore prescriptive nature of moves in DW (and AW of course). They are meant to be brief in order to give you as GM the most adaptability. Their 'intent' is to be as responses to player actions. They are just more specific options you have when the players fail a roll or look to you expectantly. Instead of using a standard GM move, you can use one from the relevant threat in the Bloodstone Idol. The one line descriptor is the key to seating a prescriptive effect within the situation at hand.

The moves I was talking about are primarily the monster/npc moves.

I still feel that a lot of them (too many for my tastes) leave me scratching my head wondering how I would ever use them in an actual encounter.

Hey Rich,

If you want, post a move from Bloodstone Idol that you're dubious about, and I'll tell you how I used it.

The moves I was talking about are primarily the monster/npc moves.

I still feel that a lot of them (too many for my tastes) leave me scratching my head wondering how I would ever use them in an actual encounter.

You can think of them as evocative terms to help you imagine the monster and its style of action. For example, I don't think I've ever had a goblin "Trigger a primitive trap", but reading that that's the sort of thing they do gives me a good handle on their sneaky-bastard-ness.

Are there any particular moves you're having trouble with?

Well, the "trigger a primitive trap" definitely had me scratching my head.

Some of them seem to make more sense if I think of them as soft moves--particularly if the NPCs don't yet know the characters are there. For example, the goblin chief's summoning a powerful being and begging for aid--I had trouble seeing how that would work in the middle of action. Or, once the characters are spotted, I could lead with him commanding the goblins to attack. So I think I have a better feel for those.

But that raises another question. How is that different from the standard show signs of doom move? I guess they give more explicit examples of the general move.

I also often have trouble with the supernatural moves. Like the Fireflies light something or someone on fire. Again, how is this different from using up a resource (by catching it on fire) or than simply dealing damage (by setting the person on fire). On the other hand, shouldn't being on fire have lingering effects? How should I handle that?

Those are just a few samples.

Also, I've downloaded both the hack and DW Basic. Which one is the most current version? I thought the hack was more recent (since it has more characters), but it seems to be missing some stuff (like the wizards cantrips). I want to start running it, but I'm not sure which version I should use.

In most cases, they're just flavour for the moves the GM already has access to, as you've correctly divined. A lot of people have trouble with the flexibility of the GM moves, so I think specific examples like the monster moves are pretty useful.

Hack is the oldest(?) version and requires Apocalypse World to run, I think? Basic (Red Book) is the most current published version, but there is a full Adventurers Guild version around with all the classes from the Hack but up to date with the Red Book that will be published sometime this year, if I understand the schedule correctly.

There's a "basic set" of GM moves (show signs of doom, etc) as well as monster and dungeon specific moves. They're all the same: things you say during the conversation with the players.

Trigger a primitive trap
The PCs are headed into the part of the dungeon that the goblins control. I tell them about the dark and twisting corridors ahead. They say they continue forward, being slow and careful. I need to say something, and I look down and see "trigger a primitive trap." That'll work! I say:

As you creep forward into the dark passage, you hear faint whispering from all directions! Like it's coming out of the walls. There's a sudden scraping sound of metal on stone and the blade of a razor sharp flint-headed spear shoots out of a small hole on the wall, right next to your head! There are holes just like that in the walls and floor all around you! What do you do?

That's a soft move, obviously, since I wasn't in a clear position to do a harder version (they're being careful and didn't miss a roll). Of course that gets customized as needed to be harder, depending on what the PCs do and if they miss a roll.

Being on fire
Here's a case where you simply lead with the fiction and ask what they do. "Your cloak is engulfed in flames! The heat is searing your eyes, mouth, and nose, smoke is in your face, you can barely see! What do you do?"

(Notice how I don't just say "You're on fire." Being specific about the fictional effects gives us more to work with and sets the right expectation for the player. Things are serious!)

Then, whatever they say next is definitely defying danger. If the thing they do is something that isn't putting the fire out, then it continues and probably gets a lot worse. Throw in damage wherever it makes sense. Sometimes it'll happen right when they're set alight (like from a fire spell or dragon breath) and sometimes it'll take a moment to get dangerous (they get thrown into a wall torch).

The way you assess which moves to make and how to use them is to follow the principles. The moves serve the principles.

Does that help at all? I'm happy to continue doing example moves for anything that's confusing, and to answer any follow up questions you might have.

I think my biggest problem is that I tend to think of moves in terms of hard moves. It is very hard to narrate something like catching a character on fire without also including the effect. I undestand, logically, how delaying the effect until after the player reacts can both be used to heighten drama and push the story forward--but it doesn't feel natural to me yet. There seems to be a barrier of assumptions and habits that I need to get past.

So, when I see a move like "set someone on fire," I immediately want to know what the effect is. That's just where my brain naturally goes. When that information is missing, I get confused and feel like I don't have enough information to use the move in my games.

I think I'n finakky startung to get it, but to take a step back, I hope the final verrsons of the rules has more samples and suggestions on using moves (and particularly on using soft moves), to help newcomers overcome this obstacle. I doubt its unique to me.

I think my biggest problem is that I tend to think of moves in terms of hard moves. It is very hard to narrate something like catching a character on fire without also including the effect.

When you say "effect" do you mean mechanical effect, like HP damage or a die-roll penalty or something? What do you think about my fire example, above? Being blinded, confused, and choked by smoke are effects, right, even if they aren't expressed as numbers or damage.

Effects (and causes) rooted in the fiction are key to the AW/DW style. Though it certainly doesn't hurt to toss that HP damage in there, too. It's one of the GM moves after all. :)