Angels and Hard

I don't know if anyone else has observed this before (probably), but I just noticed that all angel stat lines have either Hard=0 or Hard+1, meaning that there's no such thing as an angel who's bad at violence (especially considering that they get two +1hard lines, meaning an angel will never be created who doesn't have an easy path to Hard+2 at the least).

This has been starting to bother me, because I've been playing an angel who's a 98-pound weakling, and a Hard of even =0, let alone with the potential for +2, is becoming more and more plainly absurd. But there's no way to have a Hard below =0 without going out of my way to get crippled, and that's just... well, crippling myself for no reason.

So I'm not sure what to do about this, or why it's this way at all. Any help?

So I'm not sure what to do about this, or why it's this way at all. Any help?

Because Hard isn't just about being physically tough, it's also about being mentally and emotionally tough... they've seen a lot of stuff and it's toughened them in many ways.

When your 98lbs weakling Angel stares down a ganger trying to steal stock with a "Put that down or I'll show you your liver..." (Go Aggro) the ganger realizes the Angel means it...

Perhaps I'm just an oddball, but I've never seen any relationship between what's often referred to as having been "emotionally hardened" and actually being any good at overpowering someone in a violent situation.

Perhaps I'm just an oddball, but I've never seen any relationship between what's often referred to as having been "emotionally hardened" and actually being any good at overpowering someone in a violent situation.

Have you ever watched "Breaking Bad"?  The main character is a withered, dying-of-cancer teacher... but you wouldn't mess with him in a violent situation, because the guy will not back down... if he's threatening you, he's going to go through with it regardless of consequences to himself and that is scary!  He's fully dedicated to what he's doing and that emotional/mental intensity sees him through physically tough times.

Hard is also will... the drive to see things through... it's also meanness and hard-heartedness, etc, not just being big and buff and warlike.

Remember, you're playing in the fiction, to do it, do it.

So, if the 98lbs weakling Angel says to the above ganger, "Get out or I'll wrestle you to the ground and throw you out!", that's an attempt to Manipulate, because, fictionally, the PC can't actually back up that threat with a physical effect... heck, it might not even count as a manipulate, and the ganger might just laugh it off.

If the 98lbs weakling Angel instead says to the above ganger, "If you don't get out, I'm going to come over there and use this scalpel to slice off your balls." that is Going Aggro as the ganger will see that this little fucking twig has the will to come over there and do that... they aren't bluffing, you can see it in their eyes.

If that same Angel said, "I'm going to attack that whole gang with my scalpel, and claim the girl they have", the MC has every right to say, "You know, that's probably going to get you killed..." and modify the Seize By Force with a penalty or some other factor... as the fiction demands.

You know, the twig might not be bluffing, but I hope that ganger is also kind of a weakling, otherwise she's going to be the one getting wrangled down--maybe getting a few cuts in first, but not where she was hoping.

Perhaps I'm just jaded, but I also make no conflation between willingness and ability. The former appears without the latter all the time, and vice-versa.

You know, the twig might not be bluffing, but I hope that ganger is also kind of a weakling, otherwise she's going to be the one getting wrangled down--maybe getting a few cuts in first, but not where she was hoping.

Perhaps I'm just jaded, but I also make no conflation between willingness and ability. The former appears without the latter all the time, and vice-versa.

Sure, and that's were you look to the fiction to inform your choices and consequences...

That twig with the Hard+2 has both the will and the ability... as the situation allows!

(This has been a fun discussion, btw! *laugh*  Really has me thinking.)

Yeah, but I still haven't figured out what it is that prevents angels from being weaklings, or even means they're stronger than anyone else. I'm still not seeing a relationship between "I heal people" and "I'm good at hurting people." Or, for that matter, "I'm emotionally prepared to follow through on a threat of violence" and "I have any actual strength, skill, or other ability that allows me to physically follow through on a threat of violence."

For me, the fact that Angels don't really have any cool Moves for combat, plus they have lousy weapons and armor, is what makes them realistic.
Angels are people with nerves of steel; this doesn't mean they aren't gonna get chewed up and spat out in a firefight, but it does mean they're willing to go to the mat to do what's gotta be done.
Battlebabes can pull aggro, Gunluggers can hit super-duper hard, and Choppers have a whole gang of dudes to fight for them.
Angels can mix it up, too; they just aren't able to do a lot or do it super well; like you said, they can't really back it up. Occasional spooky bursts of violence seem to be about all they can muster, but maybe that's enough sometimes.
And if you trade harm for harm, Angels are gonna go down fast, compared to someone better suited for combat. Does that help?

Not really. Starting equipment is just starting equipment (except for things like angel kits, cars, workshops, and maybe FOBGs, but gunluggers of all classes need FOBGs the least, so for them it pales to little more than garnish). It's not like you can't just go buy 2-armour and a shotgun or smg or machete or whatever with a little jingle.

I've never met a medic who couldn't effectively go aggro, ever.

I've never met a medic who couldn't effectively go aggro, ever.

Were they going aggro in the AW sense, or were they manipulating with screams and glares? Because my angel may have done the latter.

Interesting that go aggro is the move that seems to be being brought up here; seizing by force seems much more tied to physical prowess to me.

I'm just saying! The medics I know, they'll never point a gun at you, but if they do, you cave and do what they want, or they shoot you.

I'm just saying! The medics I know, they'll never point a gun at you, but if they do, you cave and do what they want, or they shoot you.

See, and this is probably where I ended up wandering off. I don't usually make the mental leap from violence to guns--when I picture violence, it's usually something much more muscle-powered. (It's also why I got snippy about the best fighter class being guns-associated, despite the fact that it's the class that needs those FOBGs the least.)

As a point of realism, and having been in a few actual brawls myself, being big only kinda half counts. You have to be mean it and to want to fight.

Most people don't want to fight. Even the three guys twice my size who loudly talk about kicking the shit out of me when I leave the bar. Instead, I just spun on my heels and said, "If you wanna fucking go we can do this right here" and meant it.

As another, example, my best bud is shorter and skinnier then me but he's really, really really fucking hard and scrappy. He's a minority and basically grew-up in the neo-nazi center of Canada. I've seen him clean the floor with two guys literally twice his size. He's like 5'5 and 125lbs. I asked him how and he's just said that they didn't actual want to fight, just talk shit and shove a little bit, so he just punch them, and kicked out one of their knees.

I'm a very skinny guy. Either I don't fight or I lose. And I've lost enough times that my collar bones don't match. But I've won enough fights without fighting cause I meant it. And when a little dude means it, he's going all in, so either deal with it or cave.

The other point I'd like to make is that physical strength stops mattering the second any kind of weapon is involved. Knives especially. The effectiveness of knives and metal clubs makes someones' fists look like brittle soft little toys. Murdering a human being is likely with a single blow from a knife or a bat. Accidentally even.

And guns? Forget about it. Guns exist to murder human beings easily, effectively and quickly.

I'm with Vincent on this one: Medics, firefighters and emergence personnel of all kinds are the hardest ass motherfuckers. Their jobs is to save your life, but so help you god if you don't cooperate.