Frustrated

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noclue

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Re: Frustrated
« Reply #30 on: September 18, 2011, 12:09:24 AM »
But ultimatly i understand why the battlebabe got killed. i tried to be to agressive without any backup
Interesting comment. Your battlebabe wasnt actually killed.

and you ended up where you did because you chose to keep going despite very apparent and escalating danger. I'm curious why? what was so important about killing that guard that you stood there under that tower rather than getting under cover? and how did you expect it would go down? because your battlebabe succeeded. you said I'm killing this guard, and that guard was killed but good.

to me your battlebabe became an engaging character the moment they strung you up. before it was all, generic bad assery. but after that, i want to know what you're gonna do. what you really want. and now you have needs. you need an angel. you need a weapon. you need friends with big guns.

contrast that with your skinner who wants nothing and needs nothing special. The good news is you have an opportunity to make the skinner into someone interesting. But if you want xp you're going to have to figure out what that skinner wants and what you're gonna do to get it, and then go get it.

And I'm not sure getting everyone's opinions out in the open needs to be a bad thing.you're all obviously experiencing it differently and it's already effecting the game.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2011, 12:58:48 AM by noclue »
James R.

    "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which can not fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance-that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
     --HERBERT SPENCER

Re: Frustrated
« Reply #31 on: September 18, 2011, 01:02:07 AM »
You guys need to talk with one another about your assumptions and goals for the game and how to discuss, in-game, when things are happening that are leading to unfun events for somebody. (edit: And how to head off those unfun events before they actually happen.)

Re: Frustrated
« Reply #32 on: September 18, 2011, 09:50:49 AM »
Ok, killed was not the right word. But a character so messed up before even meeting any other character just mean a quick death and wouldent be any fun (to me).

I wanted to be a badass like the gunlugger who, when she sees someone in the way launches a grenade and slaughters everything in her path. But insead the battlebabe got stomped all over. 

Honestly i dont are that much about the battlebabe incident. I tried something and i failed.

I was just seeking advice on how to be a more effective skinner without trying to rock the boat. It seems that many posters say to be more adventerous, which i guess i will try to do and hope it wont end badly.

Re: Frustrated
« Reply #33 on: September 18, 2011, 10:58:41 AM »
I was just seeking advice on how to be a more effective skinner without trying to rock the boat. It seems that many posters say to be more adventerous, which i guess i will try to do and hope it wont end badly.

I really recommend you talking things through with your group to make sure you are on the same page, so you can know that it won't end badly.

You guys need to talk with one another about your assumptions and goals for the game and how to discuss, in-game, when things are happening that are leading to unfun events for somebody. (edit: And how to head off those unfun events before they actually happen.)
+1

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NilsH

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Re: Frustrated
« Reply #34 on: September 18, 2011, 11:21:31 AM »
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If this is how it happened it seems your MC is either cheating or hasn´t read the rules.

Or the third choice he isn't remembering the situation correctly.  I can ensure you if had to "cheat" it was to his benefit. I have read the rules forwards and backwards and when necessary talked with Lumpley and other MC's on certain aspects of the rule book.

I agree.

As in: If this is how it happened it seems....

But to exaplain what I meant:

If that was how it happened I think there is a problem with

MC hard move- The sniper is obviously a MC hard move. The MC shouldn´t make moves any time she want to. Only when it´s her turn to speak. And she shouldn´t make a hard move when the characters hits a 10+ on a move.

The MC can make a move when everybody is looking at her, and nobodys doing anything, or when the characters fail their moves. Not when a character is doing something the MC thinks is too bold, or bad or something.

Harm and armor- If the characters got a blade to the NPC´s neck armor doesn´t apply

That´s what I meant

/ Nils

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noclue

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Re: Frustrated
« Reply #35 on: September 18, 2011, 12:51:29 PM »
I wanted to be a badass like the gunlugger who, when she sees someone in the way launches a grenade and slaughters everything in her path. But insead the battlebabe got stomped all over. 
I've seen that happen in other games where someone mistakenly plays the Battlebabe like a Gunlugger. It's a good learning experience.

But, consider the fact that even if you're rolling a +3 trait, you're going to roll a miss or a 7-9 about 50% of the time. So, negative consequences are going to be coming at you all the time. Things are going to snowball and get really tense. That's built in. You're going to get hurt, captured, lose things, have to make tough choices. There is no status quo in Apocalypse World. Even a Gunlugger is going to be up to their eyeballs in shit. So, when you say "I'm killing the guard" despite the sniper tower, despite all the shit that might happen to me because of that choice, you had better really want that guard dead. That may be the choice that kills you.
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Honestly i dont are that much about the battlebabe incident. I tried something and i failed.
The reason why I focused on it is that it's a concrete incident that highlights exactly what's going on in the game. It's at the heart of your frustration. Your experience of the game is very different from the others at the table, and I think that's because your expectations of the game are not in line with what it delivers. I'm sure that it was the same thing with the Hocus. Choices were made and things snowballed, and everything got all shooty. Which is cool, sometimes you get shot in apocalypse world. Hopefully, the things that got you shot mattered.

Regarding that BB incident itself, the problem is not that you tried something and failed. It's that you tried something and expected not to be changed because of that choice.

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I was just seeking advice on how to be a more effective skinner without trying to rock the boat.
Come on dude. Your post was not "please help me play my skinner better." It was "I can't play my skinner" because if I do anything my MC will up and kill me like the last two times.

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It seems that many posters say to be more adventerous, which i guess i will try to do and hope it wont end badly.
If that's all you got from the thread, I think it's failed. You need to:
1. Have a character that wants something.
2. Try to figure out how to get what you want.
3. Go and do those things.
and 4. Realize that the character is going to change because of these choices. Sometimes brutally so (seriously, my skinner October? Completely doused in gasoline and set on fire by Ambergrease. When I play her again, I'm thinking she's either a hocus or a touchstone).

So, no. Don't just be more adventurous, or violent, or manipulative. Be more willing to go for what you want and more willing to see how things turn out.

James R.

    "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which can not fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance-that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
     --HERBERT SPENCER

Re: Frustrated
« Reply #36 on: September 18, 2011, 02:27:47 PM »
I would add: Be mindful of the risks--don't back down from making a move on something you want on account of a reasonable amount of trouble, but don't pick fights with an army over a quarter, and consider trying less-hard moves (like reading, or getting allies, or casing the joint, or finding out where they sleep at night, or just waiting until someone doesn't have backup) to stack the odds in your favour before making a hard move in dangerous circumstances.

Make those moves, though. If I were your MC (I'd be a shitty MC for many reasons, but I won't get into that), I'd be sorely tempted to throw some moves at you to make inactivity far more dangerous than making a move.

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Monte

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Re: Frustrated
« Reply #37 on: September 18, 2011, 06:20:43 PM »
You need to:
1. Have a character that wants something.
2. Try to figure out how to get what you want.
3. Go and do those things.
and 4. Realize that the character is going to change because of these choices.

Sometimes brutally so.

So, no. Don't just be more adventurous, or violent, or manipulative. Be more willing to go for what you want and more willing to see how things turn out.


I think that should be in the new Players Book.  That is how I would love to have all my players play.

Re: Frustrated
« Reply #38 on: September 18, 2011, 10:57:44 PM »
This calls for a new custom move!

When you hang out and don't really do much or pursue any kind of agenda roll +Hot
On a 10+ the MC chooses 1 of:
Someone important has heard of you, and wants to pay you an extravagant fee to do a job for them.
You are befriended by someone with hidden resources.
You have a prophetic dream in which the Psychic Maelstrom reveals a hidden treasure to you.

On a 7-9 the MC chooses 1 of:
Someone important has heard of you, and wants you to do a job for them.
You are befriended by someone who isn't really important or powerful in any way.
You have a prophetic dream in which the Psychic Maelstrom reveals a hidden threat to you.

On a 6- the MC chooses 1 of:
Someone important has heard of you, and wants to blackmail you into doing a job for them.
You are befriended by someone with a lot of enemies.
You have a prophetic dream in which the Psychic Maelstrom reveals a hidden treasure to you - but it's actually a hidden threat.

(More seriously - my thought behind this was that if someone doesn't have a particular agenda they want to push, they should be allowed to not push an agenda.  Failing to push an agenda is, in a way, an invitation for the MC to push their agenda instead.  My suspicion (WARNING! WARNING! Attributing thoughts and intentions to other people - may be highly inaccurate!) is that when the OP had his battlebabe walk into town like that, he was expecting something along the lines of 'The Hardholder sees that you are a badass, and offers you a job, which is full of danger, and excitement, and opportunities to kick ass and take names, even if it doesn't really have anything to do with your personal agenda.'  As someone who is occasionally drained by the level of input a lot of story games require, I think that's a perfectly understandable approach.

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noclue

  • 609
Re: Frustrated
« Reply #39 on: September 18, 2011, 11:12:40 PM »
Well, the book already says whenever there's a pause and everyone's looking to the MC to say something, they should pick a Move and say it (guided by their Principals of course). So, if you're doing nothing, the MC makes a move and then asks what you do.
James R.

    "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which can not fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance-that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
     --HERBERT SPENCER

Re: Frustrated
« Reply #40 on: September 20, 2011, 08:34:02 PM »
You need to:
1. Have a character that wants something.
2. Try to figure out how to get what you want.
3. Go and do those things.
and 4. Realize that the character is going to change because of these choices.

Sometimes brutally so.

So, no. Don't just be more adventurous, or violent, or manipulative. Be more willing to go for what you want and more willing to see how things turn out.


I think that should be in the new Players Book.  That is how I would love to have all my players play.
But the MC himself should be prompting the players to run their characters that way, it shouldn´t be something the players do by themselves...
I have a question about the Battlebabe and the Skinner. When they were introduced, did you introduce them in the ongoing campaign by asking the player about their relationships, their family, their jobs, etc.? Or did they just drop out of nowhere? Do they know already another PC?
I would´ve made my best try to create links between the new PC and the ongoing situation. You have to ask the player what does his character want, whom does he/she appreciate, why did he/she move on to the new holding, etc. If you try all that and the player still prefers to run a boring character, then you should stop him and have a serious talk about how does this game work.
But to me it seems like the first mistake was to simply let a character like that come to life.

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Chris

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Re: Frustrated
« Reply #41 on: September 21, 2011, 04:21:08 PM »
But the MC himself should be prompting the players to run their characters that way, it shouldn´t be something the players do by themselves...

What, why?
A player of mine playing a gunlugger - "So now that I took infinite knives, I'm setting up a knife store." Me - "....what?" Him - "Yeah, I figure with no overhead, I'm gonna make a pretty nice profit." Me - "......"

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noclue

  • 609
Re: Frustrated
« Reply #42 on: September 21, 2011, 04:29:37 PM »
But the MC himself should be prompting the players to run their characters that way, it shouldn´t be something the players do by themselves...

What, why?
I think that overstates the point a bit, but it is fair to say that the MC is supposed to ask provocative questions and build on the answers.
James R.

    "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which can not fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance-that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
     --HERBERT SPENCER

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Chris

  • 342
Re: Frustrated
« Reply #43 on: September 22, 2011, 11:14:01 PM »
Oh, yeah, but to say that it's not the PLAYER's job to want something or do anything provocative without the MC's prompting is.... meh.
A player of mine playing a gunlugger - "So now that I took infinite knives, I'm setting up a knife store." Me - "....what?" Him - "Yeah, I figure with no overhead, I'm gonna make a pretty nice profit." Me - "......"

Re: Frustrated
« Reply #44 on: September 23, 2011, 01:24:18 AM »
I thought he said it IS the player's job, just that they shouldn't be alone in doing that?