The Maestro D' and Barter

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Lukas

  • 53
The Maestro D' and Barter
« on: July 28, 2011, 06:46:36 PM »
In this campaign, I'm playing a Maestro D'. However, a small issue has come up, namely: how does the Maestro D' get her barter? The "Barter" section of her playbook has far less concrete examples of stuff to do to earn some jingle compared to the other characters, she can't take Moonlighting, Wealth or anything like that as an advance, and her establishment doesn't seem to generate any surplus. Having "spectacular events" as her only source of income seems a bit weird. Right now, we're just assuming that the establishments generates enough income to sustain my character and her crew, but we're at a loss for more barter-related stuff to do.

Re: The Maestro D' and Barter
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2011, 12:31:25 AM »
Looks like this answers the first part of your question.
"The maestro d' doesn't need barter moves, she's mechanically self-sufficient."
http://apocalypse-world.com/forums/index.php?topic=330

You can probably use the establishment to generate additional opportunities to make barter without moves, but if you'd like a move that accomplishes that I think Fingers in Every Pie is what you are after.

Re: The Maestro D' and Barter
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2011, 01:56:38 AM »
I don't know why you would want barter. Fingers in Every Pie is just better than having to barter for stuff.

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Chris

  • 342
Re: The Maestro D' and Barter
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2011, 08:08:43 PM »
....we're just assuming that the establishments generates enough income to sustain my character and her crew, but we're at a loss for more barter-related stuff to do.

Oh, god no. No, make him buy. Not all the time, but sometimes, have one of his NPCs tell him that it's time to pay up. When he asked you how he's supposed to get barter, ask him how he gets barter.

If he says "through my shop", then he's wrong. Business is hard in the AW. And mechanically, the establishment runs below cost. That's fine. Better to have side deals.
A player of mine playing a gunlugger - "So now that I took infinite knives, I'm setting up a knife store." Me - "....what?" Him - "Yeah, I figure with no overhead, I'm gonna make a pretty nice profit." Me - "......"

Re: The Maestro D' and Barter
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2011, 05:24:15 PM »
One issue has come up with my group and I would like a clear answer =)

Short version: Does the Maestro D have to pay for items he gets from Fingers in every pie?

Long version: I play a Maestro D and was so sure about that items gotten from Fingers in every Pie was "free" (but with strings if missed roll =) ). People like him so much that they want to stay on his good side so when the Maestro D really wan't/need something, he gets it.

But, now my MC has ruled that you have to pay normal market price for every single item you get from the move. Or suitable for favours and people who shows up (was getting a motorcycle part from our Biker and an Angel kit for our Angel to stay on their good side after some.. Events =)) . He states that the move just makes the items easely avalible, he doesnt reaceive them with the move. So that he acts a middle man, taking some barter for himself for the trouble.

Of course he may rule that way for our campaign, I'll just have to work with it that way. Kind of a cool way to play it, that I don't mind. But, how is it "officially" designed?
« Last Edit: August 23, 2011, 05:36:14 PM by Dragomir »

Re: The Maestro D' and Barter
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2011, 01:03:54 AM »
I can think of several reasons not to expect it to cost barter "officially"
1. The way Fingers in every pie is written is very similar to the "make known that you want a thing and drop jingle to speed it on it's way" move. The 10+, 7-9, and failure descriptions are worded nearly the same. But for the second move you roll +barter spent, whereas Fingers in every pie you roll +Hot. So the way it was written, it seems like the advantage of Fingers in every pie is that you don't spend barter.
2. The Maestro D's establishment is mechanically self-sufficient. That means a lot of barter is changing hands offscreen. It makes sense for this move to represent the establishment being that much more profitable, such that the profits are what covers these items.
3. On a 10+ it comes no strings attached. Requiring additional barter seems very much like string attached to me.

That said, I don't have any information you don't, so unless lumpley wants to drop by and give a truly "official" answer, your read is as good as mine.

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lumpley

  • 1293
Re: The Maestro D' and Barter
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2011, 02:46:49 AM »
Uh, yes. Fingers in every pie is, as designed, barter free. You don't have to pay for that stuff, unless you miss the roll and the strings happen to be jingle.

Re: The Maestro D' and Barter
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2014, 10:54:37 AM »
What if the Maestro D' doesn't choose Fingers in Every Pie as a move? Is he just breaking even with his business, no barter whatsoever from there? Is this move kinda obligatory if you want to have money?

Also: can "Fingers in Every Pie" be used to get barter? (say the fellow wants to make reserves to some unforeseen future need). 

Sorry for the forum necromancy, I though it was better than reset the discussion. I've just started my first AW campaign and this is the first question to rise (the guys with the Maestro D' goes like "how come my character is the only one with no means to get money. I though I would be good on that side, maybe not Hardholder rich, but at least on par with the Operator").

Re: The Maestro D' and Barter
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2014, 04:29:58 PM »
I've always MCed that the establishment is self-sufficient, provided the player doesn't miss a roll. We had a Maestro d' in our last game and when he missed rolls I looked through crosshairs at his bar: a power outage occurred, somebody stole his fresh whiskey, and one of his employees tried to take over the business.

When I played a Maestro d' I never once rolled a 10+ with fingers in every pie and so I was always struggling to get what I wanted and trying to make what I had work. The MC in that game was kind enough never to hit me with a really hard MC move when I blew that roll since I had terrible luck with that character.

The barter moves and fingers in every pie don't need extra bells and whistles or extra rules to make the Maestro d's life harder because the MC agenda, principles, and moves provide enough for you to challenge the PC.
Looking for a playbook? Check out my page!
http://nerdwerds.blogspot.com/2012/12/all-of-playbooks.html

Re: The Maestro D' and Barter
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2014, 08:25:11 PM »
I've always MCed that the establishment is self-sufficient, provided the player doesn't miss a roll. We had a Maestro d' in our last game and when he missed rolls I looked through crosshairs at his bar: a power outage occurred, somebody stole his fresh whiskey, and one of his employees tried to take over the business.

When I played a Maestro d' I never once rolled a 10+ with fingers in every pie and so I was always struggling to get what I wanted and trying to make what I had work. The MC in that game was kind enough never to hit me with a really hard MC move when I blew that roll since I had terrible luck with that character.

The barter moves and fingers in every pie don't need extra bells and whistles or extra rules to make the Maestro d's life harder because the MC agenda, principles, and moves provide enough for you to challenge the PC.

That's exactly my doubt here, your whole answer seems to assume the character has the fingers in every pie move. What if he doesn't (that's an optional move, right?), what roll would the character miss to get problems with his bar (or other business), how can he ever get profit out of it?

Re: The Maestro D' and Barter
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2014, 10:04:16 PM »
That's exactly my doubt here, your whole answer seems to assume the character has the fingers in every pie move. What if he doesn't (that's an optional move, right?), what roll would the character miss to get problems with his bar (or other business), how can he ever get profit out of it?

You're assuming the business has to be profitable. It doesn't.
If the player wants to expand their business, or make it profitable, without using fingers in every pie or picking p an improvement then that's something you play to find out by asking the player "what do you do?" The business without anything is simply self-sustaining, add the player's intentions, desires, and actions and the business might be profitable or it might crash and burn. Adding a mechanic to draw money from the business would make the business more of a resource to draw upon and less of something to look at through crosshairs, or maybe the MC would look at it even harder. There are no status quos in Apocalypse World.
Looking for a playbook? Check out my page!
http://nerdwerds.blogspot.com/2012/12/all-of-playbooks.html

Re: The Maestro D' and Barter
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2014, 11:03:45 PM »
I understand that it is much more interesting to play out any "barter gainage", but the Maestro playbook still seems at odds with what has been done in all the other playbooks.

Even less "businessman oriented" playbooks have guidelines on how a person like that gets money. Take the Gunlugger "one month’s employment as thug-on-hand" is worth one barter. Fair enough. Any MC worth his salt will, of course, make that month interesting... but we know what's the going rate (even if only to allow players to try and haggle for more). Now, the more "endowed" characters have even straight out mechanical ways to get barter (Operator, Hocus and Hardholder roll for it), and those barter gaining moves also present delicious opportunities for mayhem when they fail. It seems odd that the Maestro has neither one nor the other.

There's also the matter of relative values and living expenses. When we read that a Brainer can get 1 barter for "one week’s employment as kept brainer" we establish that their services are much more valued than the Gunlugger (1 barter/ month in such a passive job) or a  Hocus (also 1/month for counseling or ceremonial duties). We are either left in the dark as to the value of the Maestro business or implicitly told that it is not profitable at all. Or even worse... somewhere in the book it is stated that we should make the characters buy the "month’s living expenses, if your tastes aren’t too grand" whenever we feel that sufficient time has gone by (or we need to get them off their fat bottoms). If that's also true for the Maestro D, a "fingerless" Maestro is actually moving towards bankruptcy at -1 barter per month. Of course he can just take a gun (or a gang, if he went for that) and go rob people or something, but any other character can do that (some do it better in fact).

Please don't get me wrong here, I'm not trying to just be critic or something. I'm trying to get the angle on this character and see what other people have done with it. I've it firm in my mind that the Maestro gets at least 1 barter a month (which cancels living expenses), but I'm still pondering on how much more it could get when the wind is favorable, and what kind of downsides there are when they are not. That sound a lot like a move to me (if I got this game right). Am I missing something? Does this guy has some great perk I am missing which counterbalances him not having a surplus/want kind of move? Will I break the game in his favor if I make one?

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noclue

  • 609
Re: The Maestro D' and Barter
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2014, 11:09:47 PM »
Why should a Maestro that does not have fingers in every pie not be heading towards bankruptcy at 1 barter a month? It just sounds like it's difficult to run a gin joint in Apocalypse World. I like that this encourages the Maestro to get active, where there could be a lot of incentive to just turtle in their little world. Having to get proactive or go bust doesn't seem like a bad thing for me. The Gunlugger just has to risk his body to get barter. That's true. His life is simple.
James R.

    "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which can not fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance-that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
     --HERBERT SPENCER

Re: The Maestro D' and Barter
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2014, 01:27:46 AM »
I understand that it is much more interesting to play out any "barter gainage", but the Maestro playbook still seems at odds with what has been done in all the other playbooks.

I don't have the pdf handy, does the Maestro d' not have a section describing barter on the back of the playbook?
If that is missing I could understand your confusion, but compared to the other playbooks I don't see a problem. The wealth move covers barter on hand for the session, and moonlighting is the only truly concrete move that allows a player to accumulate real moneys.
Looking for a playbook? Check out my page!
http://nerdwerds.blogspot.com/2012/12/all-of-playbooks.html

Re: The Maestro D' and Barter
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2014, 01:59:51 AM »
In the same way that a Gunlugger can do enforcing of murder to make barter, the Maestro has things beyond the basic venue that are worth barter. What's it worth to a pair of gang leaders to have a private meeting on neutral ground? The Maestro can make it happen. Want some private time with one of the dancers? Sure but that's a premium service. Does Balls owe the Holder money? Well he's a regular and the maestro can collect for a cut. Need someone dead? Devil With A Blade and Give Me A Motive are nasty. The Operator has Moonlighting but the Maestro has the skill set to get out there and hustle in play.