Hang Up on the Fight Mechanics?

I'm not sure what to do with a fight between a pc and 2 or3 npcs. Stacking NPC harm seems a little wonky. If you have enough armor you'll probably be fine, but if you don't they end up being deadlier then a small gang. Any thoughts?

The extended combat example in the book is 1 PC vs. 3 NPCs. Did that make sense? Any specific questions that it doesn't address?

It's also super important to realise that 99% of battle, in real life, doesn't actually involve direct shooting at people. Suppressing and covering fire, movement, they're all more useful than just trying to shoot a dude, because they are actually possible to pull off.

Smaller combat between one or two guys, more often than not, only one person will actually be doing any "real" fighting, the others will be setting themselves up, covering exits, being knocked over by their buddies getting destroyed by the PC.

Always remember that, mechanically, the PCs are way more powerful than an NPC - 1-harm  or 2 to an NPC can get them out of the fight entirely, which isn't true for the PCs at all.

Ok, I found in the rules that more then 2 NPCs counts as a small gang, for some reason I was thinking it was like 5 or more.  That helps but still...

When Momo pulls a Seize by Force, against lets say, Tum-Tum and Balls both armed with shotguns. Do you take 3 harm twice, minus your armor each time? 6 harm minus your armor 1 time?  My read is the former.

But then, this is where it gets weird, lets say Ula jumps into the fray, now they're a small gang and only do 4 harm once. Which makes no difference to Momo, if he's got 2 Armour, but makes a huge difference if he's got 0.

Is that how the rules are supposed to work?
 
 

"A guy or two" can be considered the smallest tier of gang (pg. 249). In the situation you describe, where Momo is making a Seize by Force move against a pair of people, Tum-Tum and Balls, Momo would take 3 harm once. The pair of them don't have enough of a numbers advantage to inflict any extra damage beyond what a single target would.

This resolves your concern about a small gang doing less damage than a pair of guys.

I can't think of any situation where you'd inflict harm multiple times in a single move, or multiply the amount of harm taken. Instead the harm is usually bumped up one or two.

As a related comment, I don't tend to see a lot of situations where someone makes the Seize by Force against two or three NPCs- usually it's either gang vs gang moves, or between pairs of individuals in smaller conflicts. But if it really did make sense to inflict harm with a small number of people, I'd decide whether they were big enough to count as a small gang or not, and they'd do one more harm if they were, and act just as an individual would if they weren't.

Imagine the rank stacking as: a guy or two < ten or twenty (small) < thirty or forty (medium) < fifty or sixty (large). Each one hits the next one down for +1 harm, and so forth, and -1 harm for each above.

In the example you're thinking of, with seizing against two guys, you deal harm against them normally, and they do the same - so it'd be 3-harm once, minus armour. If you want to think about it narratively, then keep in mind that being shot (or whatever Momo is doing to the poor saps) isn't exactly something you shrug off and retaliate from with pinpoint accuracy. Balls fires a shot that goes wide as he's hit, and only Tum-Tum actually makes an impact, maybe, there's a lot of ways to think about it.

Everything comes down to the narrative, really, and if you're trying to make it seem as real as possible (while still fun), stuff like this is going to come up, and you roll with it! Kill those NPCs with relish, burn it all down.

I thought it made sense, then I realized that it actually doesn't make sense.

Right now the break down is
[a guy or two], [small gang (15-according to the chopper and hardholder)],[ medium gang (30)], [large gang (no definition)]

So the rules call for treating a guy or two as the smallest size like you are saying. Then there is this weird no-man's land between that and a small gang. That is the hole I'm talking about. It should really be patched somehow, maybe with another group.

I'm not stoked about treating one and two NPCs the same either but I'm cool with it being kind of hand-wavy.
Still, the small scaled fight dynamic would benefit from some better definition.

There isn't a no-man's land, it's either enough people to be considered a small gang, or there aren't.

Now it is true that the rules aren't totally clear on where that cross-over is. I think this may be intentional- it might depend upon the context. I think if you use your best judgement on whether or not the NPCs have a big enough numerical advantage that they should be considered a small gang, you'll be fine.

In practice, I've found that it rarely comes up. If there aren't enough NPCs that I want to treat them as a small gang, then usually they aren't taking moves collectively, or being subject to moves collectively. They are usually acting individually and being acted on individually. If it really makes sense in the fiction that they are acting as a unit and being acted upon as a unit, then it probably makes sense to consider them a small gang.

Wot Ctrail said.
There is no hard line defining the categories. 'Aw, but I've got 16 folks now, so i'll upgrade them to a medium gang...' Its possible mechanically, but does it make sense narratively? That's the key.

In your AW, maybe 3 or 4 well trained thugs could constitute a small gang, maybe not. The rules don't specify - you and your group does. Remember to make the world seem real and not boring. You'll be fine :)

I wonder if it might be easier to go by relative size, rather than absolute?

Outnumbering 2-1, +1 harm/+1 armour

Outnumbering 3-1, +2 harm/+2 armour

That makes numbers VERY important when there are only a few people, which I kinda like.

This kind of starts moving into custom move territory!

Noofy has the right of it. The thing to remember is that the rules are vague in some regards, yes, but that's where you should come in and fill some of the spaces for yourself, by consulting the logic of the game and the logic of your game. There's a lot of stuff in the game which boils down to MC fiat, this isn't any different!

Do what you want to do with the game, and if it works, awesome job! Your mother would be proud. If it doesn't, report back, think about it, get some more opinions. Either way, you'll be fine.

I don't think 2 or 3 well armed guys count as a small gang. That steps on the Gunlugger's toes, or on the toes of anyone with a gang.  Otherwise I'm all for defining a small gang by according to the narrative.

My issue is that according when, according to the narrative, a PC is fighting against a group of NPCs that are not a small gang. The rules of the game don't tell me what to do. This instruction could come in the form of; mechanics for harm coming from multiple threats in the same encounter, another category closing the gap between a couple of guys and a small gang (the simplest option), or something else.

Does that make sense? Oh I also wanted to be clear that I'm not having a problem making the game "work", I can make Dungeons and Dragons "work". Well, sort of.
I'm just interested in discussing what I perceive to be a hole in the mechanics that dosen't need to be there.

I agree with the folks that say there's not really a hole here.  It's either a gang or its not, depending on what the MC decides.  Gangs are mainly a shorthand that make it easier for the MC not to have to track the fictional positioning of a whole bunch of dudes all at once.  If you've got some guys that aren't a gang, fine.  Just track them individually.

And that means they act individually against the PCs too.  Balls gets a clear shot off at you.  Inflict harm.  Tum-Tum lays down some covering fire to keep you pinned.  Act under fire or maybe keep the fuck down, depending. Follow the fiction. Don't trade harm back and forth like its D&D.

And, remember, you don't Seize By Force against PEOPLE unless you declare that specifically, like "I want to capture Balls by force, mano-y-mano, it's him and me throwing down."  Often times you're seizing some other kind of fictional objective.  Like, "I'm going to run up that ridge, guns blazing, and take command of their machine gun nest."  Still, that could be Act Under Fire too, perhaps, so it really depends on what else is happening in the fiction.

John Harper has a theory that Seize By Force is better thought of as an optional battle move, not something that gets used all the time, because it really means you're duking it out with somebody and that's pretty much a sure way to get killed in AW (since both sides take harm automatically when you use the move).

Hope that helps.

...when, according to the narrative, a PC is fighting against a group of NPCs that are not a small gang. The rules of the game don't tell me what to do.

...when a player’s character hands you the perfect opportunity
on a golden plate, make as hard and direct a move as you
like.
...
When a player’s character makes a move and the player misses
the roll, that’s the cleanest and clearest example there is of an
opportunity on a plate.

That's the rules of the game telling you what to do.  Make the move that you think is best.  If you want a harder move, make a harder move.  If not, not.

Quote from: Ross Cowman on April 27, 2011, 12:31:03 PM

...when, according to the narrative, a PC is fighting against a group of NPCs that are not a small gang. The rules of the game don't tell me what to do.

Quote from: VB in AW

...when a player’s character hands you the perfect opportunity
on a golden plate, make as hard and direct a move as you
like.
...
When a player’s character makes a move and the player misses
the roll, that’s the cleanest and clearest example there is of an
opportunity on a plate.

That's the rules of the game telling you what to do.  Make the move that you think is best.  If you want a harder move, make a harder move.  If not, not.

It's also worth keeping in mind that the MC makes moves, not the NPCs. Just because there's two NPCs in the scene doesn't necessarily mean you get to take two turns. When it's time for you to talk, you still only get to make one move, right? If the NPCs are shooting a PC, you'll use the Inflict Harm move. If you think there's enough guys shooting that you feel they should be hurting more, well I guess they're big enough to be a small gang. You don't get to Inflict Harm twice in a row.