thoughts after another session

we had some good situations in this last session and it brought up a few more questions/concerns.

in a dungeon, how exactly is trap expert supposed to work? if you roll once per area then you can find at most 3 traps? or are you supposed to roll once per trap?

when attacking a group, how does the warrior move killer work? it says you kill opponents of a lower level outright on a hack and slash roll of 10+? (this didnt come up, as i dont have this move but we fought hordes of little guys so i am curious on your thoughts of this.)

the thief took poisoner and his damage increased a good chunk. it is still behind HnS (mainly because he cannot double it) but he doesnt take damage for it. (comparing 2d8+4 to d10+d6)

we fought one large bad guy and it was a hard fight. unfortunately if it had hit anyone besides my fighter they probably would have died in one go. (it was level 5 we were level 3) there were three of us, my fighter, a wizard and the thief. it should have killed me too, but i was able to down some health potions to stay alive. this is probably a null point because you are redoing the hp and dmg systems.

we used the -1 ongoing to spell casting option instead of 1/2 potency. i think it worked out rather well. it made the wizard really think on if he wanted to cast the spell and if he did roll a 7-9 he actually chose to put himself in danger a few times, and forgot a spell! (or maybe the MC made him forget the spell... dont remember) but he did take the -1 to spell casting a few times and it does just get harder and harder as you choose that option. while resting would have easily overcome that burden, the fiction didnt really allow it (we were in the bowls of a falling down temple to a demoness that was infested with little gray goblin things) hopefully combathobo will comment on what he thought of the rule (he plays the wizard)

we also used carry limit rules. i think we are using 6+ str mod for ranger fighter paladin and 5+ str mod for everyone else. this is still rather hap hazard as we are making up weight values on the fly for things. it does have its downfall because most of the people in our group dump statted str (we didnt start with this rule) so people cannot carry much. the thf doesnt carry a melee weapon because he doesnt have the slots for it...
currently we are having 5 small items (rations bandages etc) having one weight. adventuring gear takes 1, d8 weapons weigh 1, d10 weigh 2, plate weighs 2, chain weighs 1, bows all weigh 1, 100 gold weighs 1.
i dont mind the rules, but i have 9 slots. the thief hates it, and not just because he only has 4 slots (he does not like encumbrance rules in general)

all in all i think it went well. i am still looking forward for the new rules. the only real game breaking thing that we are experiencing is the hp/dmg thing. anything that can threaten me will demolish everyone else!

oh ya, we also changed defend to remove the ability for the defender to redirect damage to the person being defended from themselves. it only really came up once, though, and wasnt really enough to call it tested.

as for the wizard ongoing -1. I think that option is amazing and extremely hindering at the same time. Truth be told, I think once you hit about lvl 3 or 4 it is a very awesome option, but before then it pretty much limits the wizard to the point where he is even less effective than he already is.

The main issue I saw with it is that at lvl 1 you basically have the option of being completely ineffective in future fights (forgetting a spell) potentially getting yourself killed (putting yourself in danger) or delaying both of those options (taking an ongoing -1). even at level 2 the selection can be fairly disastrous. at lvl 3 you get the stat increase, so the -1 is slightly less of a hinder.

Mainly what I saw in our game in regards to this is the combination of an ineffective wizard and an overly effect party combined with a lack of reward for camping. When the warrior is healing himself 10hp with health potions, not having cure light wounds isn't a big deal, when the fighter and the rogue both deal well over twice the damage that the wizard can do, damaging spells seem fairly ineffective (even fireball can be fairly ineffective depending on what you're fighting, though I didn't prove this theory yet). The combination of these things leads to a couple different scenarios; the first being that the entire party camps for the sole reason of regaining wizard spells (which, when the wizard only has 2 and neither one of them prove to be effective is really not so much an option to help the party as it is an option to give the wizards player a way of relieving boredom), the second is that the party presses on and leaves the wizard in a state of complete uselessness.

How it played out in our game was simple, I, as the wizard, chose to pretty much hide in every fight, or shoot my bow just so I could roll the dice (and gain xp) because with a -3 to my spell casting I was pretty much asking to be whacked by an enemy (which had a high percentage chance of putting me at 0 hp).

To me, until camping is more useful for everyone, the ongoing -1 is a bit harsh. I felt in our game that camping in almost any dungeon would prove to be far more risk than reward for the group in whole, being that the wizard, at the time being, is the only one to truly benefit from this. Given that, the ongoing -1 might be a better option once camping rules are revised, but for now it pretty well made my wizard useless in the party.

Also, I believe that health potions are a bit too powerful at the time being. 10hp is alot, even up to around lvl 5 it seems that health potions are the best way to heal. they heal more on average than cure light wounds and cure moderate wounds (if that is the 2d8 one can't remember). Not to say that they should be taken out of the game, just perhaps that they shouldn't be so available. Even with the sketchy encumbrance rules we're using, they are very very highly effective. Though, other opinions on this would be helpful.

regarding wizard damage: i agree it is a bit low, but empower spell should make it passable. (the downside is everytime you use empower spell you have to take a penalty, i guess this is where edict memory comes in handy) en empowered magic missile does 2d4 x 2 (min 4 max 16 avg 10) this meets up nicely against a thief with use device and poisoner d10 + d6 (min 2 max 16 avg 9 [5.5 + 3.5]) again the downside is you can do this a max of n times (n = char level) without penalty iff you get edict memory while the thf can do this basically unlimited times and only need to roll a 7+ as opposed to a 10+.

tl;dr i agree, wizard damage seems low, even fireball vs 1 enemy isnt more effective than a fighter with dual wield and a total of +4 dmg.

as far as camping goes, i think we would have camped in a normal situation but the halfling twins dont really care much about others and are pretty confident in their abilities. also you started the game with only a +2 mod and didnt get your level until you were already at a -2 ongoing. after next session it will be interesting to see how quickly your mod goes down.


sage: are you redoing wizard attack spells in upcoming damage/hp re-balance?

Thanks, as always, for the very thoughtful recap.

Trap Expert needs to be reworded or reworked a little. It's supposed to be that the Thief can reroll as often as they run out of hold, but that makes writing a clearly fictional trigger a little harder. The idea is, higher rolls mean more questions before you roll again, so fewer chances of failure.

Groups and killer have already been reworked some. We're mostly ditching the kill instantly abilities in favor of a well-designed HP system. Kill instantly is like a shortcut for when something has too much HP, that shouldn't be as much of a problem anymore. It also added a little too much metagamey thinking, where a monster who was threatening 1 XP ago is now killable in one hit.

Big bad guys can be that dangerous. Sometimes that means that the players have to think about running away. If they seem to tough, they probably are. There isn't an idea of a balanced fight per se, so sometimes you will find yourself in over your head.

The -1 Ongoing thoughts are interesting. Currently wizard damage hasn't been upped, but it probably needs to be. Would that feel better, if the wizard was firing off big attacks at more risk, while the fighter had less risk but did less damage? I did some math on this, and assuming the wizard has Int +2, taking one or two -1s isn't the end of the world. That said, we're also rephrasing the "get attacked" option so it isn't literally "get attacked," it's more of a "be put in a tough spot." That also makes it a more applicable option when no monsters are present - maybe someone picks up on you casting and is now on your tale or whatever.

I think the -1 option is here to stay, but that the wizard needs to have more powerful first level spells, and that "get attacked" shouldn't be so much of a last-ditch option.

Those encumbrance rules are pretty close, though we're a bit more lenient on small items. Based on your experiences I'll look at the load per class again and make sure it's not too restrictive. That said, we DO want it to be at least a little restrictive, that's the idea. When you find the big pile of treasure, are you willing to leave your shield behind to haul more out?

The change to Defend you mention is already in the rules.

The new phrasing for that option on Cast a Spell (for Cleric and Wizard) is "You draw unwelcome attention or put yourself in a spot, the GM will describe it" I think that does a good job of making it not a stupid choice, but also not the obvious one. At least with -1 Ongoing you know what you're getting.

I'm the GM in this campaign FYI (so take my opinions with that in mind). 

I think we were already pretty much playing with that wording change for the Wizard Sage.  When the Wizard would fail a spell roll I would basically have him threatened/put in danger.  So he would have to start dodging enemy attacks if it made sense in the fiction.

I think the -1 is fine.  Just because everyone in the party doesn't have to camp doesn't mean camping is obsolete.  Camping probably should heal more (Sage already said they were going to change it) but camping should be dangerous.  We don't need camping rules if you're only going to camp outside a dungeon in a safe place.  That's boring.

Wizard damage does seem low and I think it should be upped a bit.  However, the Wizard is so much more flexible than the Fighter that their damage should not be equal.

The availability of healing between encounters is too plentiful.  Healing potions/bandages are too plentiful in my opinion and almost everyone is full health at the start of every encounter.  WHent he fighter has over 30 hit points and there's no way to wittle him down with attrition it's boring as hell unless monsters do 10+ damage.  If they do that much damage everyone else in the party with low HP is really put in a precarious position.

I have more I will be back later.

The other thing I wanted to say was that I don't love Encumberance rules, but I do love the choices that it causes you to make like sage pointed out. 

I also see a big problem with no encumberance rules for two reasons:
-Healing items are too plentiful if you are not restricted in how many you can carry
-You will never run out of arrows

Now, those two items could be fixed with other rules alterations but encumberance is the easiest.  I understand why our Thief player doesn't like Encumberance but when he carries unlimited ammo he doesn't leave us much of a choice.  I really like the choices the moves give you but (such as doubling damage and either expending an ammo or putting yourself in danger) but if you nullify those choices the game is less interesting.

i think the major issue with encumbrance is making it interesting without making it crippling. when you get to the point where you need to choose between armor or a sword its a bit strict.

damaging magic: i am do not think it should be the highest damage in the game, but currently the risk/reward of it seems a bit rough. the damage that they can do is much lower than a fighter does and the penalties for 7-9 either diminish their ability to cast or open them to taking damage. wizards are the worst at taking damage! i think the risks are fine, but as combathobo was saying the other night, he has no reason to take magic missile to do a little bit of damage when everyone else can easily do so much more. (2d4: min 2 max 8 avg 5) vs (2d8+4: min 6 max 20 avg 13) my minimum is almost as high as his max with magic missile. even if he used a shoddy bow instead he is still doing almost as much as magic missile. (d6: min 1 max 6 avg 3.5) see its like avg one and a half less damage for significantly less risk. i know that damage is all changing, but i think the risk/reward of the offensive spells needs to be upped a little. in DnD they were great even if they didnt do a lot of damage because they were relatively safe to cast. worst that generally happened is no effect on your target. in this system that isnt really possible so i think a larger incentive to cast should be given.

as far as healing items go, we only really had 2 uses of herbs and poultices for that entire session. we had two healing potions as well but i view those as more in combat healing items. (which are kinda necessary for us seeing as we dont have a cleric...) for the rest of it we relied on the wizards limited ability to heal (hes an elf so he got 1 cleric spell) which quickly diminished his effectiveness as a caster...

Regarding the only 2 occurrences of using healing items - we only had 2 fights.

I just don't recall a time when someone entered an encounter and wasn't full health (maybe someone was down 1 or 2 HP a couple times).

If that's intended then sure, that's fine.  But - why have all these different healing items - just have potions then or an item which heals everyone full health in between encounters automatically since that is what is happening anyway.

My point really is that you can buy so many healing supplies after your first dungeon all we really accomplish by having all these healing supplies is extra book-keeping since everyone heals all the way up anyway.  Maybe that's because the currency is out of whack and it costs so much more to Carouse than it does to buy things so as a GM I feel like I have to give you guys a hundred or so gold every session at minimum.

I hear you guys on the healing. That's actually one thing that the encumbrance rules I've been writing are different on - most of the healing items are weight 1.

As for the damage, I've been talking this over with Adam. First off, Fighter damage is coming way down. Think 1d10+level, and that's if you're really working towards damage (not taking other moves). With that in mind 2d4 isn't so bad, though you take bigger risks to make it scale, like empower spell. We've bounced around ideas like 3d4, which gives the wizard a slight edge in max damage and a big edge in average, or Ignores Armor, which makes the Wizard's damage fundamentally different, but might not feel as powerful (even though it's a prety big deal, since most monsters will have a point or two of armor).