Catching up - What decisions were made?

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Ry

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Catching up - What decisions were made?
« on: April 12, 2011, 01:46:20 PM »
What design decisions were made on the way from Apocalypse World to Dungeon World? 

(I'm really interested but a bit mystified because there's so much to talk about now.)

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sage

  • 549
Re: Catching up - What decisions were made?
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2011, 02:19:29 PM »
Oh man. What decisions weren't made?

Not all of these were heavily thought out, and some may be subject to change, but:

Classes taken from classic D&D classes - Bard, Cleric, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Thief, Wizard.

Each class gets some starting moves, to give them a niche, then chooses from advanced moves as they gain XP/levels. MOves you choose to level up are different from the moves you started with.

Player characters are awesome adventurers, but the world is really dangerous. More dangerous than AW, filled with monsters. The characters are on their way to the top, not already the big actors in the world. They don't start with hardholds or dedicated followers. An AW character might lead a religion, a DW character is a officiant of their religion.

Leveling up means more HP and more damage. Things scale up more than AW. You can take more hits, and dish out more hurt, at higher levels.

Buying stuff and carrying stuff is a bigger part of the game. What you carry matters.

There's no home front, there's a campaign front, which is the big picture of what's going on in the world. Adventure fronts are the smaller things that the players get caught up in/try to stop, which play into the larger campaign front.

It's PG, maybe PG-13. No sex moves, less aggressive language in the text.

AW principles, agenda, and GM moves are not DW principles, agenda, and GM moves.

That's what comes up off the top of my head. What kinds of design decisions are you interested in?

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Ry

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Re: Catching up - What decisions were made?
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2011, 02:54:02 PM »
I'm super-duper interested in the decisions around scaling-upward-power vs. standard AW.

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Ry

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Re: Catching up - What decisions were made?
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2011, 05:17:18 PM »
I'm also interested in anything along the lines of

How to convert an old-school D&D adventure into Dungeon World.

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sage

  • 549
Re: Catching up - What decisions were made?
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2011, 03:39:03 PM »
Scaling upward has been a hot topic. Here's some thoughts:

Depending on the version of D&D your talking about, scaling was much different. I usually have Moldvay, 3E and 4E books on hand for reference, and there's some pretty dramatic differences. Moldvay's scaling is mostly minimal. 3E is all over the place, without GM permissions (in the form of magic items) or help from a caster, fighters never really scale, but casters scale dramatically. 4E has such tightly coupled scaling that it's nearly transparent: your damage increases at the same rate as monster HP.

Those also all have the modifier of to-hit rolls. In DW, monsters are (unless a special move applies) all about as hard to hit.

Our current plan for DW (only part of which is in the PDF) is to have player damage and monster HP scale slowly. Dealing extra damage should reflect a player's choice of moves, not a dull required move or some automatic advancement.

The bigger part of scaling is monster damage and player HP, which has a more dramatic progression. A higher level monster does more damage (and may be causing more Saving Throws).

I guess the short answer is: scaling is definitely a part of play, but in a more considered way. The main part of scaling is that higher level monsters are more dangerous, so you'd better have a plan to survive long enough to take them down. And of course they're not just more dangerous in the sense that they deal more damage, they have fictional abilities that make, say, staring a dragon in the eyes a bad decision.


As for using old-school adventures, I'll have to guess a little more on this one. I've never ran a classic old-school D&D adventure, so I have to speculate a little.

Since DW (like AW) is fiction-first, I think it should be pretty doable. I think the important mental step is to take the descriptions in the adventure, particularly the stats, and think about what they mean, fictionally. Room 24 of the Caves of Chaos in Keep on the Borderlands, for example, has stats for a whip that will "jerk the victim off his or her feet and stun (paralyze) him or her for 1-2 melee rounds." Those stats don't come across directly, so on the fly I'd probably come up with a GM move related to the whip-wielding hobgoblin to represent that: "Hold someone stunned for a moment" or maybe "Take away their ability to fight, momentarily."

That's maybe the toughest part. I never played enough Moldvay to make sense of the abbreviated stat block on the fly, so information could be hiding there that I wouldn't know to represent fictionally. But generally, I think you can just translate the original mechanical and fictional descriptions into pure fiction, then apply them to DW.

The great thing is, that fiction can come across to DW without a lot of rules work. In the example above, I didn't mess with damage or make a full-on custom move or anything. I just stated that, fictionally, this hobgoblin can knock you out of the fight for a moment with a whip crack. Of course there's many ways to represent that, if this hobgoblin was a big deal, or I had a great idea for a custom move, I might make it into a custom player move: "When you're struck by the hobgoblin slaver's whip..."

The other part of bringing an adventure across is fronts, and I think we're pretty well covered here. Our front types are actually based on Adam's awesome job of looking through mounds of old modules and describing the threats in each. Taking, say, Keep on the Borderlands, you can easily start making adventure fronts, and even come up with a campaign front to tie it all together if you like.

The process of making fronts is likely to change the nature of the adventure a little. You could, I guess, play without fronts, and just run the adventure as-is, but I think making fronts would actually be a great way to bring the adventure to life.

Re: Catching up - What decisions were made?
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2011, 05:54:15 PM »
When I run DW, I often have a stack of OD&D books by my side and use stuff liberally from them almost exactly as written. Running old-school adventures with DW is a breeze. Scaling issues might be an issue, especially at higher levels.

The up-side is that since DW is fiction first, you'll find that a lot of the things in OD&D that don't have mechanical backing in OD&D find that backing in DW. I find it's much easier to make monsters and situations come alive in DW than in OD&D.

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Ry

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Re: Catching up - What decisions were made?
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2011, 02:32:58 PM »
Oh! I think I figured out how to phrase what I'm fishing for.

Over the first six levels of Moldvay, fighters and thieves have this arc, where they transform from basically ambitious peasants to seasoned fighting men (or corpses).   Then things level off for a while. 

Wizards start ramping up at that point (which I find annoying) - they have this arc of sucking a lot but pulling off the occasional awesome trick, and then exploding with power.

What's the Dungeon World arc, and is it different for the different classes? 

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sage

  • 549
Re: Catching up - What decisions were made?
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2011, 02:58:42 PM »
Ah! I get what you're getting at. Short answer is no. First level clerics and wizards are definitely fragile, with only one spell and low HP, but since that spell isn't automatically lost after casting, they're less of a one-trick pony.

The classes advance at around the same rate, though that's kind of a weird statement to make. Everybody gets new moves and options, but that's not quite as directly correlated with being "more powerful." It's not like Moldvay (or other versions) where you now have an AC high enough to face a grick or whatever.

In DW, you're always competent and better than a peasant, you don't start quite as low. But you're still a long ways from being able to handle an owlbear.

So, short answer: the power curves are more similar, and they aren't as directly mechanical, HP is the only thing that is really guaranteed to go up.

Re: Catching up - What decisions were made?
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2011, 01:08:48 AM »
Old-school adventures with DW are easy.  Pretty much my lazy-go-to for Dungeon World.  I've run Cult of the Reptile God, Ghost Tower of Inverness and Against the Giants with Dungeon World and really, it's just a question of taking as much time as you have beforehand and swapping out the monsters.  If you don't have the time, you can wing it with the stat blocks alone. 

All in all, the game lends itself well to piggybacking on existing published material.

Re: Catching up - What decisions were made?
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2011, 10:09:37 AM »
Cult of the Reptile God
Man...I know this came out too late to be a true classic, but I loved running this back when.  It's as good as B2 and G series.