"Faith" quote on page 45

Page 45 of beta 2.3:

“It’s not about… making sense. It’s about believing in something. And letting that belief be real enough to change your life. It’s about faith. You don’t fix faith, River, it fixes you.”
—Firefly

Pet peeve, but clerics in DW don't have faith.  "Faith" is belief not based on immediate or testable proof.  But the Cleric has proof.  He communes with his deity. He casts spells granted by said deity, spells with clear and observable effects.  If he completes a petition, he gets divine guidance.  There's no faith there.  (Sure, it might have required faith to get to the point of communing, casting spells, etc.  But it's not faith anymore.)

What clerics have is grace, or favour, or zeal.

I'm not suggesting that anything seriously change.  It's just that quote in the margin that bugs me.  And in the spirit of "don't criticize without offering an alternative," how about:

"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness. For he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know I am the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you."
-EDIT Ezekiel 25:17 Pulp Fiction

Nitpick: The attribution for your quote should be "Pulp Fiction," because that's not Ezekiel 25:17. Otherwise, seems appropriate.

Well..... That quote assumes you are playing a good cleric.

I think faith as it stands is OK as a term. Its up to the group how that appears in play fictionally. As you rightly surmise, there are mechanically achievable effects such as spells and divine guidance, but how you frame that in the fiction is up to you and your group. DW makes no assumptions on how you should portray faith fictionally, it simply gives you the mechanical wherewithal to do so.

The Walking Eye Podcast is a great example of this. CJ's cleric Beorn is sure that his faith in Torvath is the reason that Kif is healed of his wounds, whereas the wizard has had other, nastier experiences with foul entities and is adamant that there is no God, simply that he will have to pay a price for his healing in other ways.

Imagine if a cleric was awfully unlucky (it happens) and never rolled a hit, always a miss when they commune or pray. Then the only clear and observable fictional effects of their faith are all the awful GM moves that narratively get thrown their way. 'God hates me' (or at least the dice!) 'I must have more faith!'.

Like I said, it's a pet peeve and largely semantic distinction I'm making.  But the term bugs me when used in the context of a world with direct divine intervention.

Also: Shepard  Book's quote assumes at least as much about clerics as Jules' invocation.

True that Jeremy!
Well, I'm sure no-one will mind if you change faith to zeal. Its just a tag after all. They both work for me :)

Interesting thread topic.

The relationship between evidence and faith is controversial and I happen to disagree that faith must be defined as a belief unsupported by evidence.

Plus, there is the more mundane meaning of putting your trust in someone or something. Thus having faith could simply mean trusting a known god will intervene when you need them.

Yeah. This topic exists in D&D since the beginning of time.

"How can you say you're an atheist if you can clearly see a god granted me magic?!?!"

The matter here is: having faith means you believe your god is the right one, that he will help you and the world do better. Instead of being just an overpowered planar entity that likes toying with the material plane and its mortal inhabitants.

It's not about faith in the existence of god, it's faith that your god is the best god.

It's not about faith in the existence of god, it's faith that your god is the best god.

Touche!  Point ceded.

Perhaps it is also faith that your 'god' is the source of your 'divine' powers (and not some evil spirit, curse, meddlesome mage, wild magic, etc.).

Lamentations of the Flame Princess has a nice take on the topic. Just because you receive spells and guidance, doesn't mean your god really exists. It could be that something other is granting spells and guidance, like: your unshakeable believe, the collective unconsciousness of the faithful, the power of your faith, etc., but not a true god.

This thread is an excellent example of gamer culture, such detailed discussion of an aesthetic quote that is not even part of the actual rules text. ;-)

It could be that something other is granting spells and guidance, like: your unshakeable believe, the collective unconsciousness of the faithful, the power of your faith, etc., but not a true god.

I've run games using exactly this concept, specifically converting Paladins to be imbued with powers deemed appropriate by a Jungian collective unconscious as regards cultural thoughts on good and law.

I think probably that Paladins are powered by Conviction, rather than Faith.  Food for thought, anyway.