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Seizing by force and taking definite hold

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Aetius

  • 24
Re: Seizing by force and taking definite hold
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2011, 02:47:11 AM »
sorry, did a mess.
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Ciao, I'm Ezio, from Italy.
I'm sorry for my bad english... I'll keep studying ;-)
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gregpogor

  • 146
Re: Seizing by force and taking definite hold
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2011, 03:07:51 AM »
Quote from: Aetius on November 11, 2011, 02:45:36 AM
The way I would play this is sending Snake Eyes straight to 12.00 on his countdown clock and then I'll allow him to take a debility, so we can have a coherent fiction: I'm in control of his life, I cut his throat (withouth chopping like I'm cutting some chicken), no interference in this, I already have the control of his life, I already won that conflict,  I left him for death and THEN he could take a debility a come back... maybe as a Faceless XD

Good one. Clocks are prescriptive and descriptive that's true.

I'd still leave a beat between the seizing succesfully by force and the actual killing, but that's just me.
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Aetius

  • 24
Re: Seizing by force and taking definite hold
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2011, 03:44:52 AM »
Yeah, I think this is the "correct" answer because there is a strong back-and-forth between fiction and system ^^
I will leave a beat too... but Snake Eyes' life is now mine and this is a fact. I think (and this is just theory, not actual play, so this coul be a logical jump a little too far) I could certainly allow a Manipulate, to convince me to do something else of Snake Eyes' life ("Please, don't kill me, I can tell you where Harridan is!") but defenitively not another try at violence... at least if Snake Eyes cannot alter the fiction in a significant way while I've got his life in my hand and without contradict my success.

Mr. D. Vincent, are you cool with this?
Someone elso got something to add?
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Ciao, I'm Ezio, from Italy.
I'm sorry for my bad english... I'll keep studying ;-)
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Chroma

  • 259
Re: Seizing by force and taking definite hold
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2011, 08:15:51 AM »
Quote from: Aetius on November 11, 2011, 02:45:36 AM
It's going aggro? It's a "fuck up you got a lot of possibility to avoid this, you are dead (but take a debility if you want)" situation? Is something else?

You've got to remember, this is describing a PC vs PC conflict, which is different from dealing with NPCs...  with NPCs, the MC is looking through crosshairs at them and if they "should" die... they die!  No one is going to complain... except their pissed off lover or some shit... *LAUGH*

With PCs, it's entirely different, you're attempting to deny the other player the use of their character, and that's not something easy to do in this game.  First off, in this situation, the MC should probably ask the defeated character, "Do you want to keep playing Snake Eyes, or are you cool with him dying here?"  If the player is cool with that, then he dies, and everyone moves on.

 If the player is not cool with it, then the rules take over, and I'll refer specifically to the the Debilities section of the rulebook, page 165: the example there is a helpless, unconscious PC taking a shotgun blast to the head!... it's not even a PC move, per se, it just happens, but the player on the receiving end still has some choice.
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"If you get shot enough times, your body will actually build up immunity to bullets. The real trick lies in surviving the first dozen or so..."
-- Pope Nag, RPG.net - UNKNOWN ARMIES
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lumpley

  • 1293
Re: Seizing by force and taking definite hold
« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2011, 09:23:16 AM »
"I seize his life by force" has a very serious to do it, you have to do it problem when you try to use it on a PC. It's this: in order to kill a PC, you have to inflict 6 harm, and they have to choose no debility. To seize their life by force, you have to have some way you can actually do this.

Player: "I seize Snake Eyes' life by force."

MC: "Well, in order to do that, you'll have to be able to inflict 6 harm without him choosing a debility. How are you going to do that?"

Player: "Maybe I should revise my expectations. I'm going to keep him from getting away, seize HIM by force."

MC: "Perfect."

Most of the time, "I seize his life by force" is fine, as shorthand, because we all understand that what you're seizing isn't his life, which is beyond your grasp, but an advantage over him in these immediate circumstances, which will allow you to do future violence more readily.
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Ernesto Pavan

  • 79
Re: Seizing by force and taking definite hold
« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2011, 12:21:55 PM »
A note to Moreno: NPCs take only 2-Harm to die and this is exactly the damage dealt by most weapons. If they are not wearing armor, simply Seizing by Force will kill them.
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Charles Perez

  • 56
Re: Seizing by force and taking definite hold
« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2011, 01:22:19 PM »
Actually, an NPC with 2 or more harm might live, if helped in time. Taking definite hold of such an NPC's life would seem to mean being able to make sure the NPC lives long enough to get help, or dies too soon for it.

Charles
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Ernesto Pavan

  • 79
Re: Seizing by force and taking definite hold
« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2011, 01:41:10 PM »
Quote from: Charles Perez on November 11, 2011, 01:22:19 PM
Actually, an NPC with 2 or more harm might live, if helped in time. Taking definite hold of such an NPC's life would seem to mean being able to make sure the NPC lives long enough to get help, or dies too soon for it.

Charles

Or, you can just choose to deal terrible Harm and kill him on the spot. XD
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noclue

  • 609
Re: Seizing by force and taking definite hold
« Reply #23 on: November 11, 2011, 03:19:55 PM »
Quote from: Moreno R. on November 11, 2011, 02:40:59 AM
Quote from: lumpley on November 10, 2011, 11:27:58 AM
Taking definite hold of someone's life doesn't allow you to bypass harm and armor and kill them.

Even against NPCs?



I would say yes, even with NPCs. Now if the MC is looking at them through the crosshairs, they may decide that you kill them, but that's a different issue. That's the MC following their principles.

@vincent, that's why I've never liked the term "seize their life by force." it's too abstract. You can't really seize a life by force. You can strangle someone by force, or stab them, but seizing their life is a poetic turn of phrase for what's really going on. When you seize their gun, you're grabbing their gun. That's clear and concrete. But if you seize their life?
« Last Edit: November 11, 2011, 03:27:38 PM by noclue »
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James R.

    "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which can not fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance-that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
     --HERBERT SPENCER
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Daniel Wood

  • 532
Re: Seizing by force and taking definite hold
« Reply #24 on: November 11, 2011, 09:05:16 PM »
Quote from: gregpogor link=topic=2125.msg12633#msg12633 I'd still leave a beat between the seizing succesfully by force and the actual killing, but that's just me. [/quote

Yes, this was my point. And as Vincent says, against a PC -- that PC could just do the same thing back to you when they react. Mexican standoffs are fun!

As for whether it lets you bypass harm, I guess I disagree with Vincent, or I'm thinking of different situations. Of course it depends on what your definite hold looks like in the fiction. But there's lots of times in games where the fiction makes the harm rules irrelevant. Helpless people, situations set up beforehand, etc. And the MC in those cases has the option of just saying 'ok you kill them', when a move doesn't seem necessary. So it's not really a big deal to say that you don't use the harm rules for something.

Of course when the person you are trying to kill is a PC then the MC is going to want to give them a chance to react, of course -- he doesn't look at the PCs through crosshairs, after all.
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Aetius

  • 24
Re: Seizing by force and taking definite hold
« Reply #25 on: November 12, 2011, 08:45:40 AM »
I realized that the discourse over going aggro and killing someone with weapons that normally would not do could be off topic in this thread.
I'd like to continue it here
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Ciao, I'm Ezio, from Italy.
I'm sorry for my bad english... I'll keep studying ;-)
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