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Messages - ColdLogic

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31
blood & guts / Re: How much damage does a proton beam do?
« on: October 12, 2015, 03:14:27 PM »
Don't forget:

1. Make them buy. Fuel is a huge cost to getting a ship off the ground. Plus specialized salvage and specialized tools.

2. Activate their stuff's downside. Stuff breaks -- that's the one thing the savvyhead can count on, right?

Taken together, if I were MC and were privately committed to seeing the savvyhead's spaceship get realized, I'd be making custom moves that imply the savvy is a) barely able to keep things running and b) barely able to find even approximately suitable materials.

32
brainstorming & development / Re: Memento Mori WIP Hack
« on: September 26, 2015, 02:22:08 PM »
Keep it coming. I don't have a ton to add yet, having not seen everything you've got.

33
brainstorming & development / Re: Memento Mori WIP Hack
« on: September 25, 2015, 05:25:00 PM »
They are traumatizing, menacing, charming, etc... mortals? And if so, it's more or less to get Creep?

Their adventures are more or less split between the afterlife and Earth? Or lean towards one more than the other?

34
roleplaying theory, hardcore / Re: Moving on from "GNS"
« on: September 18, 2015, 04:18:55 PM »
I do.

35
roleplaying theory, hardcore / Re: Moving on from "GNS"
« on: September 18, 2015, 03:46:34 PM »
Oh! Yeah. So it's not that assigning authority isn't necessary, it's that it's insufficient?

That's crystal clear. Thanks.

36
Apocalypse World / Re: Can some one explain how NOT TO BE FUCKED WITH works?
« on: September 18, 2015, 01:38:09 PM »
Does fighting Johnny Nofriends count as being 'in battle'? If not, the move isn't triggered. If so, then yes.

37
roleplaying theory, hardcore / Re: Moving on from "GNS"
« on: September 18, 2015, 11:18:21 AM »
Oh wait! Some more tricksy assent-fostering but not strictly authority-assigning stuff:

__ First session MC stuff basically says 'Take what the table has contributed during character creation and run with it'.
__ Ask provocative questions and build on the answers too, same thing.

They still assign authority (in both cases, to the players), but they're tricksy about it. So there's that.

(Of all the great stuff AW has, the first session stuff is some of the best, to me. Being able to show up to a game basically cold and walk out with tons of material is priceless).

Back on topic: I'm really not satisfied with the conflict I see between 'Basically every piece of AW has assigning authority in it' vs 'AW's conversation isn't predicated on assigning authority'. Sometimes, maybe many times, pieces of AW assign authority and do other things as well (eg, your comment that assigning authority is a piece of Seduce&Manipulate). But, like, there's no 'other thing' common to every piece like assigning authority is.

38
roleplaying theory, hardcore / Re: Moving on from "GNS"
« on: September 18, 2015, 11:08:21 AM »
First: I'm sure it doesn't, but if this whole conversation is dependent on the Big Model's conception of specific kinds of authority (eg, content vs situation vs whatever the rest are), then fine. I'm not committed to how it partitions up pieces of authority.

Here's the incomplete list you suggested of ways a game can foster assent:
Quote from: Vincent on G+
Provoking a contribution
Assigning responsibility
Providing constraint
Asking a question
Inspiring a contribution
Assigning authority
Helping form a contribution
Providing instruction
Providing a model to follow
Granting permission
Making a suggestion
Interrupting your contribution
Anticipating your contribution
Calling for affirmation
Holding your contribution in suspense

I see prompts and constraints all over the place in AW with tags, size, wants, surplus, obligations.

On the MC side, things like tell them the consequences and ask or turn their question back on them angle towards provoking a contribution, providing constraint, interrupting your contribution, granting permission...

But I can't let go, man! The running thread through these, the thing they are all predicated on, is assigning authority. The MC decides what the possible consequences are. The MC decides when to relinquish her authority and ask the players what the burn flats look like or whatever. Furthermore, we agree it's at least a piece of pretty much all the components of AW, and you've further agreed it's an important piece of pretty much every game ever. How is that not devastating to the claim that assigning authority is not a uniquely useful or fundamental way of fostering assent? I mean, I get that you don't accept my claim that these things are predicated on assigning authority (that's literally the substance of your claim). But how is that? Are you willing to, you know, show your work on this one as you did with GNS?

PS -- I know you're likely tired of this, and you've elsewhere indicated this is a super busy time for you, so if not then just say so and I'll stop bugging you. This is genuine confusion and a desire to understand on my part, not some attempt to get you riled up and certainly not to undercut what you're doing.

Paul T: Fiasco doesn't exactly ignore authority altogether. Doesn't it care about who establishes a scene and who resolves it? Doesn't it even go so far as to care about who decides who will establish and resolve?

39
roleplaying theory, hardcore / Re: Moving on from "GNS"
« on: September 17, 2015, 02:55:36 PM »
Bad phrasing, Vincent. I'll try again.

Seduce/manipulate is assignment of authority, not the 'thinking differently' that Paul T was looking for, so he didn't really answer his own question as you indicated before. Assume we agree that, per the relationship you've described, any element of system that assigns authority is, by definition, an element of system that fosters assent. You'd know better than me, obviously, so I happily defer to your expertise here. But AW looks like it makes heavy use of assigning authority as the primary way it fosters assent. It actually looks like assigning authority is fundamental to how AW carves up the conversation -- the PCs' responsibility is to say what their characters do, the MC's is to play the world, and sometimes the MC turns questions back on the PCs, etc.

So, what if any assent-fostering elements of AW don't boil down to assigning authority? I listed the Hx rules of character creation as a possible candidate because the rules and examples make explicit that the PCs should work out their shared history together instead of one person just dictating that she left you bleeding or whatever. So there's one, assuming you agree with that assessment. That's tiny, though, and it's pre-play, while I'm looking for stuff geared towards in-play.

If it's not something that can be parsed down into individual elements (like, if it's a confluence of different bits of the system that fosters assent without assigning authority), just say so.

40
roleplaying theory, hardcore / Re: Moving on from "GNS"
« on: September 16, 2015, 01:51:32 PM »
Paul T: I'm here. You pretty much answered your own question, though, didn't you?

-Vincent

Man, I don't see that parenthetical as an example of assent, except trivially. Seduce/manipulate explicitly grants authority to the player of the target PC -- 'What they do is up to them.' A lot of other moves in AW explicitly grant authority as well -- most of the time to the rolling player, but sometimes to that player's target or to the MC. How much assent is built into AW's system, as opposed to authority?

41
roleplaying theory, hardcore / Re: Moving on from "GNS"
« on: September 14, 2015, 11:36:48 AM »
Paul, check this for that technical 'check my work' discussion:
https://plus.google.com/+VincentBaker/posts/atC8kDhSQjU

Of particular note to your questions, maybe:
Quote from: Vincent
If it were my job to bring the Big Model current, here's what I'd do:

1. Replace every taxonomy in it with the process or structure that the taxonomy illustrates.

For most of them, this would be pretty easy. Most of them are either trivial, like DFK, or transparent enough, like IIEE. There are only a couple of troublesome opaque ones, like GNS. Maybe only the one!

2. Replace the idea of creative agendas with one that actively resists both taxonomy and RPG exceptionalism.

In this thread I haven't done the work this would require - and if you thought I would, you were dreaming - but I've put forward my candidate and shown that the work is possible.

3. Take the idea that roleplaying depends upon a distribution of authority by the hair, drown it in the mill pond, sink its body with stones, and bring in a cranky New England witch to curse its soul to thereunder remain until Doom's final trump.

This is the easiest of the three, and by far the most important.?

42
roleplaying theory, hardcore / Re: Moving on from "GNS"
« on: August 19, 2015, 04:19:26 PM »
Vincent, while you're answering all of the above, can you mention how you see John Harper's 'Crossing the Line' intersecting here, if at all? (Or John, by all means please dive in; I addressed Vincent only because he's been doing the talking).

As an aside, I noticed the other night that some of the Dogs character creation rules focus on assent. Specifically, your starting equipment and its quality/size/crapiness are, per the rules, dependent on the other players' assent as opposed to your authority. The Hx rules in AW also (like, in the example a player tells the MC the story behind his Hx with another PC, then asks that PC if that makes sense to them). Are there a lot of other rules (or whole games, even) out there already that explicitly point to assent instead of authority/responsibility?

43
Apocalypse World / Re: Treasure and Rewards
« on: August 19, 2015, 12:57:25 PM »
^ agreed with Daniel.

When they take out Rolfball and you want to give them some kind of treasure, instead reveal the contents of his heart and barf apocalyptica at them. You know, show them that trunk Rolfball has among his belongings containing, like, some dead Old Worlder's love letters. Let them find his stack of comics, mostly tattered and burnt but still readable. Or the ash and charcoal portrait sketches he has hidden away under the seat of his truck. Whatever.

edit: oh, and tell them to write it down! Like, they look down at their list of things and it says 'oddments worth 2 barter, an assault rifle, a stack of Old World love letters' and I'll just bet they'll be trying to find some way of introducing that back into the fiction some time later.  Which, you know, just makes it that much more of a cool thing to have found. Way better, imo at least, that finding 'treasure' in the D&D sense.

44
Apocalypse World / Re: Building Fronts - No idea what I am doing
« on: August 07, 2015, 11:37:53 AM »
Brilliant Scheme,

That's one way of thinking about it. In other words, 'What Fundamental Scarcity is driving the bandits to raid?' That's pretty much what the book says as far as using Scarcities to make fronts. It doesn't represent how the PCs can overcome the threats, as you said -- it represents what needs to be overcome. Also note the the bandit threat advances until a) the PCs have somehow changed the world for the better with respect to HUNGER or b) until the dark future of the bandits is realized (the holding falls, rioting, burning, killing scapegoats, everyone taken back as slaves or food, or whatever you have in mind).

You can also look at the Scarcities as being themes you want a threat to hit on. Maybe you decide your bandits are really hitting on Despair instead -- like, given enough time, the people of the holding come to believe it is hopeless trying to resist the bandits, that carving out some semblance of civilization out here in the wastes is futile, that they are better served by savagery or suicide or joining the bandits. You could probably create multiple threats on the Despair front like that -- the factions in the holding expressing their Despair in different ways, the death cult that's on the rise, the bandits outside the holding always pushing in. Just make sure the PCs are in the middle of it all.

Either way works. Using both approaches to fill out your fronts works great too. That's what I do, personally.

-- Christopher


45
Apocalypse World / Re: Building Fronts - No idea what I am doing
« on: August 06, 2015, 04:15:56 PM »
Jonatan,

yes it's okay to have a mobster on your ambition front and a sickness on your decay front or whatever, even if both are inside the holding.

The rule for creating fronts is to link threats thematically (by scarcity), not necessarily in the setting (like 'inside the holding'). This is so you can have different threats in the same setting ('in the holding') hitting different themes. If the two threats are thematically-related (the Cloverfield monster and its flea monsters probably are) then they go on the same front. If they aren't thematically related (the ambitious mob boss and his hungry gang member) then they go on different fronts. The hungry gang member is on a front with a bunch of other threats that express hunger (the crew that works the primitive greenhouse, the cannibals, that rival holding out on the flats with nothing to their name, whatever).

When you make your mobster threat and create a front around him, some thematically-linked threats will come to mind that are also linked to this mobster (his lieutenant who wants to take over, or that scrappy street kid who's dying to get noticed by the boss and become a made man). When that happens -- great! Add them to the front. If nothing comes to mind and you need to fill up that front with other threats, invent some threats that also express ambition, whether they tie directly to the mob boss or not -- the DA who is running for governor and is making a show by cracking down HARD on the ghetto where the PCs live, maybe? (I know that's a little weird for AW; I'm assuming a Goodfellas-type hack of AW with mobsters and stuff). In the end, you have a front that expresses ambition seven ways to Sunday.

Sometimes you'll have a threat and won't know exactly what front it goes on (that is, you won't know what theme it expresses right off the bat). That's fine too. Throw it on the Home Front until you figure it out.

At the end of the day, you have all your threats organized by theme (as opposed to being organized by how they relate to each other in the fiction, or organized by where they live, or organized according to a million other schemas). This should hopefully make it easier to keep the themes your game is expressing firm in your mind, which in turn will hopefully make it easier to look for ways of expressing those themes. So every time that hungry gang member comes on stage, look for some way of letting his hunger (or someone else's, whatever) shine through by word or deed, for example. No one is going to go through your fronts and complain that you don't have the mob boss and his hungry gang member on the same worksheet. It's really there as a resource to help you, not to lock you into some rigid format, right?

Make sense?

-- Christopher

PS: I guess I should point out that in addition to theme (scarcity), the threats on a given front are also linked by the fact that they impinge on the PCs' lives. The ambitious DA in my silly example above needs to impinge on the PCs' lives (like, she needs to make waves where they live or something, not Back Home On The East Coast or whatever). I'm sure you knew that though, just clarifying.

EDIT -- re-reading what you wrote, I'm positive you already get most of what I wrote. Sorry for mansplaining it to you. I'll just leave it here in case someone else finds it helpful.

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