46
Apocalypse World / Re: Default +stat, info +stat: a forum game!
« on: December 16, 2012, 02:11:27 PM »
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47
Apocalypse World / Default +stat, info +stat: a forum game!
« on: December 15, 2012, 07:43:40 AM »
Do you like thinking about possible AW hacks even if you don't actually make any? I do!
So here's a thing. You know how Weird is the setting background stat because you get all of your information through it? And you know how Cool is the mechanical background stat because it has the move that you can always default to?
Now lets see what happens if we get different stats for those purposes! Default AW stats only, for now at least.
I'll start.
Info stat: Hot. You get all of your information from other people by being someone they would willingly release their secrets to. You have to be attractive, sensual and sexual to know what the true meaning behind the world is. If you're not, you can still act end get things done, but you might never know what your actions mean in the great scheme of things.
Default stat: Hard. To keep alive and well, you have to do one of two - suck up the fallout, or make someone weaker than you deal with it.
I think the above might just be Game of Thrones, but I could be wrong.
Anyway, your turn! Pick a stat that a getting information move would fall under, and a stat that would basically do some version of act under fire, and describe the result.
Or, I don't know. Ask to clarify if you don't get what the game is about. But that's not as interesting.
So here's a thing. You know how Weird is the setting background stat because you get all of your information through it? And you know how Cool is the mechanical background stat because it has the move that you can always default to?
Now lets see what happens if we get different stats for those purposes! Default AW stats only, for now at least.
I'll start.
Info stat: Hot. You get all of your information from other people by being someone they would willingly release their secrets to. You have to be attractive, sensual and sexual to know what the true meaning behind the world is. If you're not, you can still act end get things done, but you might never know what your actions mean in the great scheme of things.
Default stat: Hard. To keep alive and well, you have to do one of two - suck up the fallout, or make someone weaker than you deal with it.
I think the above might just be Game of Thrones, but I could be wrong.
Anyway, your turn! Pick a stat that a getting information move would fall under, and a stat that would basically do some version of act under fire, and describe the result.
Or, I don't know. Ask to clarify if you don't get what the game is about. But that's not as interesting.
48
roleplaying theory, hardcore / Re: IRC No Good for AW/AW-based hacks?
« on: December 05, 2012, 10:56:05 AM »
My primary venue for playing AW (though not MotW) has in fact been IRC. There have been absolutelly no problems - except one time I tried to run with as many players as there were playbooks, which crashed and burned four(!) sessions in.
A number of my friends, who spend most of their time doing freeform RP on IRC, have also gone to playing as well as running consecutive, inter-crossing campaigns of AW with extreme ease.
The game is not a problem, especially not with three players total.
Your player either needs to lose both some preconceptions and attitude, or you can play a different game with him. AW (and its hacks, I presume) don't run well with players who want to avoid involvement.
A number of my friends, who spend most of their time doing freeform RP on IRC, have also gone to playing as well as running consecutive, inter-crossing campaigns of AW with extreme ease.
The game is not a problem, especially not with three players total.
Your player either needs to lose both some preconceptions and attitude, or you can play a different game with him. AW (and its hacks, I presume) don't run well with players who want to avoid involvement.
49
Apocalypse World / Re: "Do your time like everyone else"
« on: December 04, 2012, 07:45:51 PM »
I think it's less the ability to use a thing and more what the fictional baseline is.
If you have "Swamp lore", you don't really get to tag it much unless there's a swamp or swamp-related stuff in your game.
Same in AW - you don't "tag" "well armed" or "too many fighters" unless there are situations in which those things matter. Now, AW is fictionally seeded right out of the box in a way that makes "tagging" those things easy...
But it's exactly the same for 'blissed out on chillstabs' or 'doing your time' - with the added caveat that it's the group that needs to implant the fiction seed of pain and the gritty details of coping with injuries mattering.
If you have "Swamp lore", you don't really get to tag it much unless there's a swamp or swamp-related stuff in your game.
Same in AW - you don't "tag" "well armed" or "too many fighters" unless there are situations in which those things matter. Now, AW is fictionally seeded right out of the box in a way that makes "tagging" those things easy...
But it's exactly the same for 'blissed out on chillstabs' or 'doing your time' - with the added caveat that it's the group that needs to implant the fiction seed of pain and the gritty details of coping with injuries mattering.
50
Apocalypse World / Re: "Do your time like everyone else"
« on: December 04, 2012, 04:52:13 PM »
'cause that's painful, and this particular game has already established that the healing process is messy and horrible. Do you want messy and horrible, or do you want a pain-free week? It's not likely to be much of a plot point, but it's still a kind of choice.
There's really no point to not doing it if the established default is that you can always walk around with 5 harm on you no problem.
But, like, it's not like chillstabs are especially mechanically or fictionally interesting, though they can be at times, or more constantly if you make the effort.
I once told Vincent that a well-armed gang (+1 harm) option is far inferior to an increase in gang size (de facto +1 harm and +1 armour) option. I was, like, why would anyone choose the well-armed gang option? How would it be meaningfully different?
The answer was that he doesn't care about mechanics balance, to which other people added that you can totally *make* the difference matter. Which is true.
So, basically, if you make the difference between a week of bedrest on painkillers and who knows what time in pain meaningful, then it's meaningful. If not, not.
There's really no point to not doing it if the established default is that you can always walk around with 5 harm on you no problem.
But, like, it's not like chillstabs are especially mechanically or fictionally interesting, though they can be at times, or more constantly if you make the effort.
I once told Vincent that a well-armed gang (+1 harm) option is far inferior to an increase in gang size (de facto +1 harm and +1 armour) option. I was, like, why would anyone choose the well-armed gang option? How would it be meaningfully different?
The answer was that he doesn't care about mechanics balance, to which other people added that you can totally *make* the difference matter. Which is true.
So, basically, if you make the difference between a week of bedrest on painkillers and who knows what time in pain meaningful, then it's meaningful. If not, not.
51
Apocalypse World / Re: "Do your time like everyone else"
« on: December 04, 2012, 04:18:13 PM »
I think the chillstabs are mostly a character beat for the Angel. Do they have their pacients take painkillers after pain, or are the "bite on this" kind?
As for the player suffering the harm being healed, well, it depends on how much you make the pain matter in the game - in default AW, that's not much, but then AW is very customizable.
In a game I ran once, I trust the players would not have minded getting some chillstabs. The city was full of jerks, the characters kept getting in trouble and hurt, and the only local medic-type-guy charged an arm and a leg to basically brutalize them with weird machinery. One of the guys got shotgun shrapnel ripped out of him with an electromagnet, another one failed to make full payment and covered the rest by granting the guy rights to experiment on him, a third one had a kidney cut out during trauma surgery, again as part of payment.
When the default healing process is basically a kind of mutilation, I would think spending a week blissed out on chillstabs becomes far more attractive.
As for the player suffering the harm being healed, well, it depends on how much you make the pain matter in the game - in default AW, that's not much, but then AW is very customizable.
In a game I ran once, I trust the players would not have minded getting some chillstabs. The city was full of jerks, the characters kept getting in trouble and hurt, and the only local medic-type-guy charged an arm and a leg to basically brutalize them with weird machinery. One of the guys got shotgun shrapnel ripped out of him with an electromagnet, another one failed to make full payment and covered the rest by granting the guy rights to experiment on him, a third one had a kidney cut out during trauma surgery, again as part of payment.
When the default healing process is basically a kind of mutilation, I would think spending a week blissed out on chillstabs becomes far more attractive.
52
Apocalypse World / Re: "Do your time like everyone else"
« on: December 04, 2012, 02:07:23 PM »
Most of the time in AW you pretty much suspend disbelief where the health of the PCs is concerned.
You could not do that and have various medical complications play a bigger choice, which is probably a good idea if you have an Angel in play (same as how it's a good idea to scale up threats when there's a Hardholder in play and involve more complicated social arrangements with a Skinner).
That doesn't involve anything anyone already knows about AW, though.
What do you want to get out of this question, Paul?
You could not do that and have various medical complications play a bigger choice, which is probably a good idea if you have an Angel in play (same as how it's a good idea to scale up threats when there's a Hardholder in play and involve more complicated social arrangements with a Skinner).
That doesn't involve anything anyone already knows about AW, though.
What do you want to get out of this question, Paul?
53
Apocalypse World / Re: "Do your time like everyone else"
« on: December 03, 2012, 04:43:47 PM »
It means not having painkillers after surgery.
It doesn't do anything fancy mechanically, but it can be a kind of important thing to establish where the Angel falls on the "Let me adjust your IV, Mr. Balls" to "Bite on this here leather strap" continuum.
It doesn't do anything fancy mechanically, but it can be a kind of important thing to establish where the Angel falls on the "Let me adjust your IV, Mr. Balls" to "Bite on this here leather strap" continuum.
54
Apocalypse World / Re: Hardholder Generosity
« on: December 01, 2012, 09:03:56 PM »
I'd just like to reiterate that there's nothing really wrong with the initial setup.
In fact, tracking the barter pretty closely can be kind of neat - in most of the games I played (or ran), barter was either ignored altogether, or a shiny thing used rarely. The work Devonapple is putting in to closely track the numerical value of barter will pretty inevitably turn barter from something a character has to something a character needs, which is pretty awesome!
Awesome both on its own, but especially in case of the Hardholder, getting the player activelly worried about the day-to-day life of his hold without, you know, immediatelly throwing damned serious crises of total economic collapse and angry mobs at him.
In fact, tracking the barter pretty closely can be kind of neat - in most of the games I played (or ran), barter was either ignored altogether, or a shiny thing used rarely. The work Devonapple is putting in to closely track the numerical value of barter will pretty inevitably turn barter from something a character has to something a character needs, which is pretty awesome!
Awesome both on its own, but especially in case of the Hardholder, getting the player activelly worried about the day-to-day life of his hold without, you know, immediatelly throwing damned serious crises of total economic collapse and angry mobs at him.
55
Apocalypse World / Re: Hardholder Generosity
« on: November 30, 2012, 08:01:21 PM »
The general thrust of it is not wrong, there are details that you could be doing different, and there are other ways to engage scarcities (that you probably know of).
General thrust: pushing forward a scarcity in an understandable way is great. It's easy to forget to that as MC, and then you end up with the "huh, my PCs are killing everything and it's working great for them" problem. So thumbs up.
Details: x-Barter is an abstract mechanicy thing, and as an MC you try to hide such facts. Misdirect, never speak its name, etcetera.
Barter in fiction isn't a number like today's cash mostly is - items of barter are things that people trade because they're useful. So, if people aren't working and the Hardholder isn't gaining rent, it's not just money he's missing out on, but stuff that could be crucial for the wellbeing of his hold. A sack of potatoes and a busted radio can be 1-barter both, but what they're needed for are different purposes, and so getting more barter-radios when your hold needs barter-potatoes can still be a problem.
Other ways (that you probably know of): You could not do barter calculus, have the hardholder be generous without much in mechanical hindrances, and instead just create a threat or front that's all about milking the hardholder's generosity for all it's worth, and then push that.
You could also not change a single thing in what you're doing currently and it'd still work great.
General thrust: pushing forward a scarcity in an understandable way is great. It's easy to forget to that as MC, and then you end up with the "huh, my PCs are killing everything and it's working great for them" problem. So thumbs up.
Details: x-Barter is an abstract mechanicy thing, and as an MC you try to hide such facts. Misdirect, never speak its name, etcetera.
Barter in fiction isn't a number like today's cash mostly is - items of barter are things that people trade because they're useful. So, if people aren't working and the Hardholder isn't gaining rent, it's not just money he's missing out on, but stuff that could be crucial for the wellbeing of his hold. A sack of potatoes and a busted radio can be 1-barter both, but what they're needed for are different purposes, and so getting more barter-radios when your hold needs barter-potatoes can still be a problem.
Other ways (that you probably know of): You could not do barter calculus, have the hardholder be generous without much in mechanical hindrances, and instead just create a threat or front that's all about milking the hardholder's generosity for all it's worth, and then push that.
You could also not change a single thing in what you're doing currently and it'd still work great.
56
Apocalypse World / Re: The Stalker playbook ?
« on: November 29, 2012, 08:16:16 PM »
Playbook? Not as far as I know.
There's a STALKER hack, though I don't know how far along it is.
You could pilfer it for ideas and make your own playbook easily enough, probably.
There's a STALKER hack, though I don't know how far along it is.
You could pilfer it for ideas and make your own playbook easily enough, probably.
57
Apocalypse World / Re: Am I doing this right? Fire Down Below - front
« on: November 27, 2012, 02:24:16 PM »
Yes.
58
Apocalypse World / Re: (More) Seeking MC Advice
« on: November 25, 2012, 07:05:51 PM »
Do you do the optional things? As in,
Don't forget that a MC's a player, too - you're playing, not performing. Meaning, you get to do things on your own, taking players into account instead of just reacting to what they do... If you think the stoning's a big deal, you can zoom in on it. If you want to inject some colour in the game that you like, do that too. If a character is consistently doing the same strategy over and over again and it succeeds just as consistently, you can handle it off-screen (three months pass...) and skip to a more interesting outcome. If you have problems thinking up what troubles the characters will be facing when they shoot everyone in sight, you can always ask the table for help.
Basically, all you need is just to relax a bit, take your time and make use of other players.
How's your list of fundamental scarcities, by the way?
Quote
A FEW MORE THINGS TO DO
• Make maps like crazy.
• Turn questions back on the asker or over to the group at large.
• Digress occasionally.
• Elide the action sometimes, and zoom in on its details other times.
• Go around the table.
• Take breaks and take your time.
Don't forget that a MC's a player, too - you're playing, not performing. Meaning, you get to do things on your own, taking players into account instead of just reacting to what they do... If you think the stoning's a big deal, you can zoom in on it. If you want to inject some colour in the game that you like, do that too. If a character is consistently doing the same strategy over and over again and it succeeds just as consistently, you can handle it off-screen (three months pass...) and skip to a more interesting outcome. If you have problems thinking up what troubles the characters will be facing when they shoot everyone in sight, you can always ask the table for help.
Basically, all you need is just to relax a bit, take your time and make use of other players.
How's your list of fundamental scarcities, by the way?
59
Apocalypse World / Re: Help: Breaking Orthodox Inhibitions and Getting Bloody
« on: November 15, 2012, 04:26:37 PM »
Should we take this help/interference thing off-this thread, maybe? I feel like it could be interesting discussion - because I think that help/interfere is a badly designed move and what we're (me explicitly, you, I think, implicitly) are talking about are ways of fixing it.
Gotta tell you, my opinion is that that's a bullshit platitude. It's true in the sense that, in the fiction, sure. If people help you, that's great, you might get the warm fuzzies inside, woo.
The other thing, though, is that the design of the help/interfere rules is the most lackluster thing in the whole design of AW.
It fails as a mechanical rule - you roll your dice with a risk as great as any roll, but you're only going to have any positive mechanical influence over the roll 14.6% of the time (42% fail, 44% whiff).
It fails as a fiction cue (as compared to other moves in AW at least) - when was the last time you did a help/interfere roll that made it matter what your actual history was? The move is completelly generic, and you can always do the same thing to a dude regardless if you watch him sleep or if you poisoned someone together.
There are two fixes to the move - one is to only even let it apply when it matters (other dude rolled a 6 or 9), and the other is one that I *think* you're implying is to have the in-fiction action of helping have an effect regardless of what the result of the roll is. But since I'm an AW MC, I'm always already doing that second thing. The hell do I need to waste my time with a meaningless extra roll?
Quote from: noclue
In a world of scarcity and shit, the fact that someone helps you always matters.
Gotta tell you, my opinion is that that's a bullshit platitude. It's true in the sense that, in the fiction, sure. If people help you, that's great, you might get the warm fuzzies inside, woo.
The other thing, though, is that the design of the help/interfere rules is the most lackluster thing in the whole design of AW.
It fails as a mechanical rule - you roll your dice with a risk as great as any roll, but you're only going to have any positive mechanical influence over the roll 14.6% of the time (42% fail, 44% whiff).
It fails as a fiction cue (as compared to other moves in AW at least) - when was the last time you did a help/interfere roll that made it matter what your actual history was? The move is completelly generic, and you can always do the same thing to a dude regardless if you watch him sleep or if you poisoned someone together.
There are two fixes to the move - one is to only even let it apply when it matters (other dude rolled a 6 or 9), and the other is one that I *think* you're implying is to have the in-fiction action of helping have an effect regardless of what the result of the roll is. But since I'm an AW MC, I'm always already doing that second thing. The hell do I need to waste my time with a meaningless extra roll?
60
Apocalypse World / Re: Help: Breaking Orthodox Inhibitions and Getting Bloody
« on: November 15, 2012, 04:58:22 AM »
Rolling Hx to help after the fact seems totally legit to me. The help roll only has a point if the initial roll is at a very specific interval, and I hate having my players roll something for nothing.
As for the general problem...
First, stop worrying about the PCs, if you are at all. They can take a punishment, so if on a miss you go "Er, um, uh... Flying bears from the sky descend upon you!" and when they go "What?", you can very safely say "You heard me!" There's really no delicate balancing of appropriateness required, so if a part of your brain is worrying about "but will it kill them?", you can stop using that.
Next - not knowing what to do is natural at the beggining of every new game. The fiction builds up with time and makes your other decisions easier, though. For example - whatever you chose for the Angel's opened brain miss, it also let you get a better handle on what the maelstorm is all about, no? If so, you'll be able to draw on that next time someone botches (or hits) a roll.
You can always help yourself by taking some time to cultivate appropriate imagery. If at the beggining of a session you describe the plague ridden hardhold in detail - how the people move slowly and carefully to avoid contact with others, how someone intently looks at another's eyes or arms, how there's this inescapable smell that comes and goes with the wind from the west, it'll be easier for you to pull random details for busted moves whenever that's what you need.
As for being reactive - that's all well and good, more or less played the way it should be. Just have your NPCs react appropriatelly to what the PCs do, and don't worry if the PCs can deal with it.
So, basically - seed the fiction with details at every opportunity, have no worries about challenging the PCs or not. It's a mean world, and all you have to do is play it to a hilt.
As for the general problem...
First, stop worrying about the PCs, if you are at all. They can take a punishment, so if on a miss you go "Er, um, uh... Flying bears from the sky descend upon you!" and when they go "What?", you can very safely say "You heard me!" There's really no delicate balancing of appropriateness required, so if a part of your brain is worrying about "but will it kill them?", you can stop using that.
Next - not knowing what to do is natural at the beggining of every new game. The fiction builds up with time and makes your other decisions easier, though. For example - whatever you chose for the Angel's opened brain miss, it also let you get a better handle on what the maelstorm is all about, no? If so, you'll be able to draw on that next time someone botches (or hits) a roll.
You can always help yourself by taking some time to cultivate appropriate imagery. If at the beggining of a session you describe the plague ridden hardhold in detail - how the people move slowly and carefully to avoid contact with others, how someone intently looks at another's eyes or arms, how there's this inescapable smell that comes and goes with the wind from the west, it'll be easier for you to pull random details for busted moves whenever that's what you need.
As for being reactive - that's all well and good, more or less played the way it should be. Just have your NPCs react appropriatelly to what the PCs do, and don't worry if the PCs can deal with it.
So, basically - seed the fiction with details at every opportunity, have no worries about challenging the PCs or not. It's a mean world, and all you have to do is play it to a hilt.