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Messages - Orion

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46
Reply: The Principles

--the status quo is barbed wire: you can fuck with it, but it'll hurt
--scare them with monsters, then let them become the monsters
--starting characters can't succeed: make them fail or change

Unlike Apocalypse World, this setting has Powers that most definitely Be.  The PCs can become pretty powerful themselves if they're willing to implant metal in their flesh, take mind-altering drugs, project their consciousness to other bodies, or play host to a demon. 

The Fronts: Irrelevance, Destiny, Tradition, Jealousy,... more to come. 

The Currently planned basic playbooks: Samurai, Sorcerer, Medium, Ninja, Scholar, Technician

advanced playbooks: Programmer, Monastic, Accountant, Rockstar, Akashic, Doctor

Note: an "advanced" playbook is mechanically just one that players aren't normally allowed to actually play.  They can take moves from them when fictionally appropriate, or even change to them with the Ungiven Future.  Note that advanced playbook moves are the fictional purview of specific power groups, and that advanced moves tend to seriously compromise your humanity. 

47
The year is 23xx.  Megacorporations eclisped the state as the powers of the world and expanded their territory until the world was divided by 4 powers.  Universal Standard, decadent masters of Space and the Americas.  Hevezda Unlimited, leaders of the warrens and gulags of Europe.  Patala Investment, brokers of wealth and life in South Asia and Africa, and your home, the glorious Empire of Daybreak Industrial. 

In Houston they built the great Pattern, a space-beyond-space which facilitated storage and shipping through matter-gates.  In Dubai, they programmed the Rings, a revolutionary information network that coded access and account ID into the human genome.  The powers of Eurasia entered a biological arms race, uplifting animals to sentience, breeding great beasts for war and labor, and reifying the superiority of the Executives in blood.  Though rapid transformation left many behind, it looked like the dawn of a golden age, until the treacherous Turtle Clan unleashed the Shadow.

Now the locked vaults of past seep into the present, and the annals of the internet have come alive, drowning this human island in a tide of chaos and blood.  The metaphorical sea is metaphorically fucking rising, but that's not your problem.  Your problem is the bastards in charge of this island.  You aren't going to play by their rules. 

The Stats:

Earth: Earth is your attentiveness, your grounding, your receptivity. 
Fire: Fire is your energy, your impulse, your creative spark.
Metal: Metal is your hard edge, your discipline, your competitive streak.   
Water: Water is your flow, your cool, your tranquility, and your mystic mojo.
Wood:  Wood is your flexibility, your elegance, your social fucking grace. 

The Basic Moves:

When you pull something from the pattern, roll+Water

10+: As below, but add it to your Account. 
7-9: Choose 2: You get what you wanted, you get something quality, you don't take 1-harm(ap), it's not loud

When you look into the rings, roll+earth

10+: you see it
7-9: Choose two: you see what you wanted, they can't see you, you don't add a new spirit threat to the current front

When issue a challenge, roll+metal

10+: You don't take harm, or you harm something [big]
7-9: trade harm, but you get one possession, or one favour,

Note: "harm" in this game is frequently not actual harm.  You'll have weapons like "Stalking Tiger Style; harm: You collect a blood sample.  Or Sittar of Somnolence; area loud harm: target falls asleep." 

When you invoke your authority, roll+wood
10+: NPCs do what you want, PCs act under fire
7-9: one of the targets is a ninja

When you whip up a gadget, roll+fire

10+: Choose 1: it works right away, it isn't [dangerous]
7-9: it's [dangerous] and it takes a while

Note: The basic moves list is definitely incomplete.  These moves replaced Seize by Force and Open Your Brain, but there will definitely be an equivalent to Acting Under Fire and Reading a Person/Sitch.  Probably Going Aggro and manipulate, too. 

48
Apocalypse World / Re: Stat Substitution Glitch
« on: July 24, 2010, 04:54:11 PM »
So I take it the game assumes that advances will come more like 1/8 than like 1/15 anyway?  That does make sense. 

One thing nobody mentioned yet is that the alternative to taking substitution moves is frequently taking moves that themselves offer opportunities to roll.  Merciless doesn't intrinsically earn XP (except for making it a hell of a lot easier to *survive* rolling your hard), but if you pick up Augury, Lost, and Healing Touch there's a *lot* of opportunities to roll Weird.  I initially discounted that because playbook-move based characters are easier to regulate--you could just refuse to highlight Weird for a couple sessions if your Brainer was advancing undesirably fast, but it's quite possible that moves like Sexy & Dangerous, Hypnosis, and Fuck This Shit let you keep pace with the substitutions with favorable highlighting. 

At this point I'm pretty convinced that stat substitution moves are not, per se, a problem--as long as advancing every 7 moves or so isn't.  And I don't have a clear enough perception of how the game plays to take a stand on that, so I'm happy to take my chances.  That said, I'd certainly love to hear about what that rate of advancement looks like and how it plays out.   

49
Apocalypse World / Re: Stat Substitution Glitch
« on: July 24, 2010, 08:38:22 AM »
Daniel, Thanks so much for taking the time to post your experiences.  I found them an interesting and mostly reassuring read. 

Vincent, your point about the uselessness of "session" as a rubric is well-taken.  I guess I was treating "session" as a unit of playtime rather than and individual meeting, I guess I care less about improvements/session than improvements/45 minutes of spotlight.  (that's the same as per-session for a 4-player, 3-hour session.) 

I also especially like your formulation of the problem as advancement vs. development, and I think that's really the heart of my concern.  It takes time, or perhaps a better way to phrase it would be, it takes moves to set up a character for an improvement to be fictionally appropriate, so the question becomes, can you justify a stat-substituting character's improvement in the potentially as few as 5 moves it takes to earn that advance.  I can certainly imagine a number of five-move sequences that could leave the fiction wanting an improvement, but I'm not sure yet how often moves will be spent "dithering". 

I also realize that I've assumed that the game ends at the same point for all characters, but it sounds to me as though you're suggesting that characters can phase out one by one as theirs stories end.  I guess my only concern with that is whether it's practical to introduce a new character if you know practical constraints will limit the lifespan of the group. 

Thanks so much for taking the time to look at this, and I regret the adversarial tone I ended up taking. 

50
blood & guts / Re: Advancement, what is it for?
« on: July 23, 2010, 06:06:10 PM »
Chris: I don't see it that way.  On the contrary, I feel that AW is notable for shaping the experience much more tightly and explicitly than mainstream RPGs do, which is to Vincent's credit!

Remember, the rulebook may admonish the *MC* to go with the flow, look through crosshairs and play to find out what happens--but by telling you to do that, he's telling you NOT to play any of the dozens of other ways you could play.  (Like keeping your favorite NPCs alive until you felt it was their time to go, or writing the campaign's last scene first and then writing PCs to fit it (mental note: write that game!)  It's absolutely shaping the experience into a very confined space.  

Fractal:  Sorry, the question I'm really getting at is: Why did Vincent write the advancement rule he did and not any other rule?  Why do improvements come every 5 XP and not every 4 or every 6?  Obviously nobody can actually know why he wrote it that way except Vincent, and I'm hoping to hear from him, but Anyone is welcome to share their best guess.   

51
Apocalypse World / Re: Stat Substitution Glitch
« on: July 23, 2010, 05:57:51 PM »
John, you're the fourth person, AT LEAST to step in to tell me "nothing to see here, move along."

First of all, I don't care how many playtest games you ran unless you can tell me that this game has been *destructively* tested.  

Second, while I really have no reason to doubt your word, I also don't see why not one person can spare the time to tell me

"In our game we averaged N improvement per session, with the fastest characters achieving N+M.  Characters with stat substitution moves advanced faster/slower/the same as character who took their playbooks' more unique abilities.
 
The introduction of new holdings and gangs had a positive effect/negative effect/didn't happen.  When the game ended, approximately X improvements had been handed out and the characters' power level caused the game to end/had nothing to do with the game ending."  

If you've playtested the game hundreds of times, there should be piles of this kind of thing lying around unless you didn't bother to actually collect data.  

52
blood & guts / Re: Advancement, what is it for?
« on: July 23, 2010, 05:06:31 PM »
You guys just keep upping the ante.  First the claim was that an MC shouldn't try to control the rate of advancement, which I found hard to agree with, but is nonetheless a reasonable opinion to hold.  But this is a design thread, in a forum about making hacks.  Are you saying that the designer, too, should not deign to interfere with the mysterious powers of the game?

Somebody (well, vincent) made up the rule we have now and presumably had reasons for doing so.  *I* like to think that Vincent had an idea in his head of about how many improvements per session to expect and that if the rule didn't achive that result he would have changed it. 

I must be misunderstanding something because you seem to be advocating a contradiction in terms, that a game designer should not try to control the experience that his game generates.  But that's what game design *is*.  Culling, from the literally infinite number of play experiences it is possible to have, characters it is possible to imagine, and stories which it is possible to tell, a subset which the designer endorses as especially enjoyable. 

53
Apocalypse World / Re: Stat Substitution Glitch
« on: July 23, 2010, 03:50:20 PM »
Motipha,

You make an interesting point, and one I definitely intend to take to heart.  It's definitely a big part of the answer.  But consider: all RPGs can be said to take place somewhere on a continuum between reader's theater and improv theater.  

At one extreme, you go in already knowing who lives, who dies, and who has sex with whom.  The only thing the players provide is their rendition of the script, the depth of emotion or witty ad-libbed line that makes the character yours.  This can still demand a lot of a player--we swoon over Jacoby's Claudius or Tennant's Hamlet, right?  but many people do want more control of their fate.  

In traditional tabletop gaming, I'd say this is most closely represented by D&D, where the adventure is written out ahead of time and it's generally assumed that the bad guys die, the PCs live, and the balance is restored to the force.  Or for another example, I'm currently running a game of aWoD which is basically the players living through a story I wrote.  I came up with the plot, wrote all the PCs (with some feedback from the players) and gave them their interconnected backstory.  

At the other extreme is improvisational theatre, where any participant can introduce new characters and elements at whim and there's no pre-arranged goal or endpoint.    This area is explored by some games like Munchausen (reportedly, I haven't read it).  The downside, quite simply, is that coming up with interesting new material takes effort and the more you allow things to deviate from a track, the more effort you spend inventing things on the spot, and the more things you came up with ahead of time get wasted.  

Now it's pretty clear to me that AW trends toward the improve side of things, and that's fine.  But it's also clear to me that AW is not intended to be some kind of ideologically pure expression of improv.  After all, you fill out a worksheet full of threats ahead of time, right?  And you spend time between-session working up a cast.  If the characters somehow managed to kill off your entire cast of named characters during a session, you'd have to stop and make new ones, which would slow play and get exhausting.  Same for if they solved all the threats you had planned; you'd need to send them home early or think really fast.  

So I think the guideline of looking through crosshairs is a good one, but it's gotta be tempered by human fallibility.  At the rate at which PCs kill named characters, solve threats, or acquire improvements goes to infinity, the game *will* become impossible for a human MC to run.  The question becomes, "what is the highest rate of turnover a typical MC can accommodate", and "do stat-substituters push games over the edge."  That's an empirical question for which I don't have the data, but I'd be grateful to hear from anyone who does.  

54
Apocalypse World / Re: My first front
« on: July 23, 2010, 02:45:23 PM »
Okay, if the question is "do you run into the Sun Cult" then I agree that leaving ti as Weird is probably for the best.  The only other option would be Sharp, to reflect a perceptive character steering clear of trouble. 

Once they've run into the sun cult and dealt with the consequences of that move, they can use their Hot or Hard for their next move to try to get what they want. 

55
Apocalypse World / Re: Stat Substitution Glitch
« on: July 23, 2010, 02:43:58 PM »
NilsH,

You and Chris have both emphasized the importance of the MC not predicting anything.  Could you explain why you feel that way, and why its importance outweighs real-life scheduling concerns?

Also--It's possible and even likely that the rule has been tested and found good, but if that's the case, it shouldn't be difficult to show me the money.  As a reminder, my assertion is that:

1: A character with multiple stat-substitution moves will earn improvements dramatically faster than other characters, and

2: That this will lead to an undesirable result

All Vincent, or anyone knowledgeable, needs to do is disprove one of those statements.  Either tell me that those characters have been played and did not earn improvements especially fast (preferably accompanied by an approximate breakdown of where Xp was coming from) or by saying they've played successful games with rapidly advancing characters and explaining how it went. 

56
blood & guts / Advancement, what is it for?
« on: July 23, 2010, 02:24:25 PM »

1: Why have improvement at all?
2:How much improvement do we want?
3: Why tie it to die rolls and not time passed or fronts weathered or goals accomplished or any of the other things it could plausibly be tied to? 

57
Apocalypse World / Re: Stat Substitution Glitch
« on: July 23, 2010, 02:05:08 PM »
NilsH-- I have several thoughts on your post, but to begin with, I flat-out disagree with the notion that the MC shouldn't try to foresee anything. 

I go to a college where each academic session is 11 weeks long.  Assume that one can't organize anything for the very first weekend, and that people want the weekends of reading period and finals free for studies.  Assume further that I got away for the weekend once per term.  That means that there are 8 weekends available for gaming.  Finally, assume that I play RPGs mostly for the character development that happens one your basic situation is set up. 

What happens if the game comes to end with the 6th session?  We make new characters?  We'd only get to play them twice; that's hardly satisfying or a good use of my time.  I think in this situation I have a compelling interest to make sure my game runs for exactly 8 sessions.   

58
Apocalypse World / Re: Stat Substitution Glitch
« on: July 23, 2010, 01:58:35 PM »
EDIT: It seems to me that what I ought to do is make a thread on Blood & Guts about the purpose of Advancement in AW. 


Bret, if I were going to be convinced by bald assertion, I wouldn't *need* to playtest it.  I'd accept there's no problem if

1: I saw such a character in play (for 5 or more session) and it wasn't a problem
2: I saw a convincing intellectual argument that there is no problem, or
3: I heard stories about groups who had those characters, and no problems, if those groups' playstyles sounded similar to mine.  

Now, my MC isn't adopting this house rule, so it's totally possible that a friend will play this character, nothing bad will come of it, and you'll all be vindicated.  But as long as *I* believe that the rule is problematic, it would in fact be *unethical* for me to play that character, and I won't do it.  That means that if you happened to care what I thought, your best bet would be to convince me intellectually that the rule is okay.  So far I've heard three arguments

1: It's okay because it's not a problem
2: It's okay because the MC needn't care how fast advancement happens
3: It's okay because it just is

I've made my counter-argument to option #2, and that's where we stand.  

Now, I can't say that either you or Vincent *owes* me an explanation of anything--your time is your own.  I do know that, personally, as designer, some of my priorities were

1: test destructively, to find breakpoints that casual play may not reveal
2: remove bugs that cause unintended results, even if they occur rarely, and
3: clarify design intent and the workings of mechanic whenever possible.  

So if someone came to me with a concern about Bad Juju or Identity Crisis, in an ideal world I'd like to think I would

1: have already tested it, be willing to do so, or have my playtesters do so rather than asking the public to do the testing
2: explain what the rule was supposed to achieve--in this case, rouhgly how fast advancement is "supposed" to happen, what role advancement plays in the game, etc.
and
3: show mathematically when appropriate, or by example otherwise, how the rule does in fact produce the intended result.  

Now I'm sure Vincent is a busy guy, and I realize the above is a heavy demand.  I won't take it personally if he doesn't have time to explain it all to the little guy, but I don't like being told not to worry my pretty little head about it.  

59
Apocalypse World / Re: My first front
« on: July 23, 2010, 01:30:23 PM »
Well the question is, when you're interacting with the sun-people, what's the biggest challenge?

Is it that you can't get them to do what you want?  Or that they are mentally infectious? 

Since you phrased the move as "when you try to get them to build defenses", I assumed that the defense were the focus of the moment rather than the weirdness.  It seems to me that if the challenge is motivating them, Hard, Hot, or even Cool might be appropriate.

If on the other hand it's not a question of whether you can get the cultists to work, but whether you run into cultists or normals, than Sharp or Weird makes sense.  Or if the Cultists cheerfully work, but try to infect you, then Weird makes sense.

Finally, you could break it down into two moves, I guess--make the custom move a Weird roll JUST to determine whether the player gets infected, then force them to actually Go Aggro or Manipulate to get the work done. 

60
Apocalypse World / Re: Stat Substitution Glitch
« on: July 23, 2010, 01:26:07 PM »
Oh man, double-post time.  I'm certainly vomiting forth SOMETHING all right. This one is for Vincent: I'm rather disappointed by the attitude you take. 

Look, I've read the rules and hypothesized that a subset of the possible characters have a bug.  It's a large-enough subset to be of some concern, but it's far from the majority.  Around here, we tend to play with groups of 3-4 players, so it's entirely possible that I won't even see one of the character's I'm worried about played.  What would that prove, then?  It wouldn't prove that there is no bug, just that I didn't run into it.  But it's actually worse than that, because my belief that there is a problem means I *won't* be playing an Ice Cold, Easy to Trust character.  And if my views spread to others in my group, they won't either.  That means that no amount of playing will be able to prove there is no bug, but that the playspace for my group will be curtailed. 

Your advice only makes sense if I amend it to, "play the character you think is a problem" before house ruling it, which, frankly, I don't consider to be especially good advice.  I don't get a lot of opportunities to play RPGs, so I'm likely to play a full game of AW only once or twice in the foreseeable future.  I should deliberately try to destabilize one of those games to prove my point? 



     


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