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Messages - Orion

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31
Apocalypse World / Re: Re-Situation Moves
« on: August 02, 2010, 06:04:34 PM »
I'd say they're appropriate in any situation where the PCs are at a loss for what to do or aren't hellbent on pursuing some goal. 

Normally I imagine you'll have characters busy doing things that you want to play out, which prevents you from fast-forwarding their life.  It's when the momentum founders due to a long break or something that that kind of "montage" is appropriate. 

32
blood & guts / Re: Too many cooks... OR (help: not always helpful)
« on: July 28, 2010, 03:00:52 PM »
I resolved to show my work on the math part, but I can't be arsed to write the tables up in BBcode.  It works like this, and forgive me if this is too basic:

When you roll two dice, each die generates 6 possibilities.  Together, there are 36 possible outcomes: each number on the first die can be paired with each number on the other die.  If you group them by sum you get:

2 1,1
3 1,2; 2,1
4 1,3;3,1;2,2
5 1,4;4,1;2,3;3,2
6 1,5;5,1;2,4;4,2;3,3
7 1,6;6,1;2,5;5,2;3,4;4,3
...

Basically, the number "7" comes up at a probability of 6/36, because there are 6 different ways to roll "7".  As you move awya form 7, which is the center of the table, you lose 1/36 each time.  So the final probabilities, in 1/36ths are:

2, 12: 1
3,11: 2
4,10: 3
5,9: 4
6,8: 5
7: 6

So when helping, the odds of *helping* are the odds of rolling the 1 number that would have missed, while the odds of causing a problem are based on your own total odds of missing.  Since the middle numbers are the most likely, your helps helps most when the person you're helping needs a moderate number, and is less useful when the odds of success are very high or very low. 


33
blood & guts / Re: Why are followers so hard to get?
« on: July 27, 2010, 05:30:04 PM »
Well, Fnord, if you wanted to cite rules, Perfect Instincts means that (some) battlebabes have a hefty incentive to spend more time planning their move than gunluggers do.  That said, I personally would play up the instinctual, intuitive aspect of that, and assume that the the character exectues with unhesitating grace what took the player a good deal of thinking to gin up. 

34
blood & guts / Re: Too many cooks... OR (help: not always helpful)
« on: July 27, 2010, 05:27:58 PM »
Sure, and that's a big part of why this isn't a bug, just something to be aware of: as the MC you can choose not to screw the player being helped.  That said, I think you and I differ about how often my criterion applies. 

Sure, it's relatively rare that you would directly negate the move being helped (give away the person you were covering for, kill the patient you were helping to restrain, offend the person you were helping manipulate--or accidentally hook up with the person you were helping to seduce.), but there are other reasons a miss might amount to the same thing.

First of all, if your miss starts a fight in a previously social encounter, or sets off explosives in a relatively tame firefight, or unleashes psychic badness in any situation, you may create a situation so big that it affects everyone near it.  The other player's goal may just not be possible in the new context. 

It also makes helping a dodgy choice if you are less than self-sacrificing.  If the single most important thing is that the roll you're helping succeeds, then go ahead and roll to help as long as your GM won't screw the guy you're helping.  But, if the guy you're helping cares about *you* at all, then it's a much bigger problem. 

Let's say your buddy has gotten himself into a fight with some thugs, and you want to help him out.  Ask yourself: what happens if I get myself in danger.  If the answer is "he abandons his objective to make sure I get out" or "he risks himself to cover me," then the best thing you can do for him is not get involved.  Again, there are dozens of dramatic scenes that work exactly like that--look at Romeo and Juliet, for instance.  I just wanted to point out that, no matter how good their relationship is, your gunlugger and your battlebabe are probably better off *not* fighting back-to-back. 

35
blood & guts / Re: Too many cooks... OR (help: not always helpful)
« on: July 27, 2010, 04:30:13 PM »
Addendum: sometimes people roll more than +3 due to being in a car, or reading a situation, or having insight.  

If someone is +4 or more, don't help them.  Just don't do it.  (Unless they desperately need to hit 12 or something).  

If someone has +5, you need +3 Hx to reasonably interfere with them.  If they're rolling +6, you have nothing to gain.  If he's rolling +7, well... he can't miss even with your interference.  So don't fight an insano driver with perfect instincts.  It won't end well.   

36
blood & guts / Re: Why are followers so hard to get?
« on: July 27, 2010, 04:13:14 PM »
Well, I pictured the battlebabe's hold on her gang being all about her presence, her charisma.  The violence she dishes out is terrifying and beautiful and intoxicating and you love to watch and fear to leave.  As such it makes sense to me that a battlebabe would reassert her hold by "making an example" in some super-cool way with her crazy weapons.  There's nothing "cerebral" about a battlebabe in my mind.

Meanwhile, the gunlugger is neither as hot nor as cool as the battlebabe, so the gang follows out of either straight-up fear or self-interest.  Gunluggers also have a pseudo-military vibe going with their first aid kit, their ability to fight gangs, etc., so it seems more likely that they would get Leadership going.  Especially since they have the option to take a holding, why wouldn't they lead their gang like a hardholder does?

37
blood & guts / Too many cooks... OR (help: not always helpful)
« on: July 27, 2010, 03:51:59 PM »
This post is not a complaint; it is an attempt to draw attention to a rather quirky effect of the rules.  The effect produced is in fact very much in genre, but it's one players should be aware of when choosing their moves, and MCs should be careful of when planning theirs. 

When you try to help someone, you give a bonus to their roll as long as you roll a 7+, which is pretty easy, right?  But if you outright miss, the MC gets to make a hard move.  And sometimes, those moves aren't good for the person you're helping.  let's look at an example from the book:

Quote from: Vx, p.206
Marie’s helping Keeler get into the water cult house by talking
animatedly with Tum Tum, trying to hold their attention while
Keeler sneaks behind them. (On a 7–9, maybe Tum Tum start
pressing her for … unsavory commitments, with threats to back
them up.) Marie misses the roll, so I get to make as hard a move
as I like. I choose to put Keeler in a spot. “Do you glance Keeler’s
way? Or do they read your mind? Or what? Anyway, one of them
turns, very deliberately, and Keeler, looks right at you. What do
you do?”

In this case what I believe is going on is that Keeler is acting under fire, rolling +cool to sneak into the building, and Marie is rolling +Hx to help.  When Marie misses her help roll, the MC responded by causing Keeler to automatically fail her own move.  We could generalize this as an application of "turn their move back on them" -- a missed attempt to help can cause the main effort to fail.  That certainly keeps AW feeling real--wannabe helpers ruin 4.7 projects, according to the Department of Fanciful statistics.  But it means that there's a trade-off and a balance point: a rolled help move can make the main move more or less likely to succeed. That means that a helper with a low +Hx can actually make you less likely to succeed than going it alone.

Now, AW characters are *supposed* to act rashly and self-destructively from time to time, so there's nothing wrong with the existence of a well-meaning move that actually screws your friends.  But what might surprise you is just how hard actually helping is.  I've crunched the numbers, and it turns out that the answer is this:

If you assume that missing your help roll causes the overall effort to fail or become irrelevant, then

IF you have +3Hx AND the person you are helping is rolling +1 or less, THEN you increase their chance of hitting; ELSE you make no difference or are an active hindrance. 

Now maybe you're fine with that, but I'm a big believer in player transparency, so I would implore you to make sure your players know this fact.  They can still choose to "help" when the fiction demands it, but they should know how the dice fall.  But, maybe your vision of AW is one where teamwork is more beneficial.  In that case, here is my advice:

--remember that to do it, you have to do it.  You could, when answering a read situation or offering an opportunity, decree that some things can't be done without help.  Marie rolling +Hx hurts Keeler if it's *optional*, but maybe Keeler can't even try to sneak in without Marie creating a distraction.  If you do it, you do it, so Marie has to roll.  Besides the difficulty in getting two PCs together, this move ends up being less likely to succeed for other moves, so try to make sure the payoff is worth it

AND (the big one)

--be judicious about how hard you go with the move you get on a failed help.  Try to put the burden of failure on the helper, not the helpee, and even then go a little softer than you might.  Share with your players your intentions Re: failed help rolls. 

PS-- the same thing applies to interference in principle, but interference is *way* easier since it gives a -2 when you hit.  And, while occasionally failing to interfere might help, it usually wouldn't.  Still, if you consider missing to be equally bad as making him miss is good, check this out:

IF you have +3 Hx THEN you are more more likely to cause him to miss than to miss yourself

IF you have +2 Hx AND your victim has -1 or better THEN you are more liekly to cause a miss than to miss

IF you have +1 Hx AND your victim has +1 or +2, THEN you are mroe likely to cause a miss than to miss yourself.

ELSE you are more likely to miss than to cause a miss. 



38
blood & guts / Re: Why are followers so hard to get?
« on: July 27, 2010, 02:00:17 PM »
You can't actually take Followers form another playbook because it's not a move.  Fortunes is, but it doesn't do anything if you don't have any followers. 

Quote
=Vx, page 181If there’s a move in another playbook and it makes no mechanical
sense for your character — like fortunes but you have no
followers, for instance — then for goodness sweet sake don’t
choose it. Choose a different move, one you can actually make

You could just as easily format it such that the gang came with Pack Alpha and followers came with Fortunes.  So in fact, the rules are specifically set up to prevent you from getting leadership options that don't come in your playbook.

 

So in fact Vx consciously If there’s a move in another playbook and it makes no mechanical
sense for your character — like fortunes but you have no
followers, for instance — then for goodness sweet sake don’t
choose it. Choose a different move, one you can actually make

39
blood & guts / Why are followers so hard to get?
« on: July 27, 2010, 01:24:36 PM »
Only the Skinner has the option to pick up followers as an improvement, even though acquiring insight (or madness) and starting a cult seems like a pretty natural character arc.  I'm especially surprised it's not an option for Angels, considering the deep associations between religion and medicine, and the psychic/empathic powers an Angel can get.  A Brainer, too, would make a scary-ass cult leader with Unnatural Lust Transfixion. 

Are they omitted just because those playbooks ran out of advancement slots?  Or because Insight and Augury are too big a deal to give out easily?  Would there be any reason not to let a player substitute one leadership improvement for another?  It's not a big problem for me in any event, since by the time you played through your prophet's awakening and proselytizing, you'd probably hit Ungiven Future and be able to straight up change books to Hocus. 

PS: also curious why Battlebabe gets Leadership rather than Pack Alpha.   


40
Apocalypse World / Re: Stat Substitution Glitch
« on: July 26, 2010, 04:15:38 PM »
No problem, Vincent, you've already addressed the issue to my satisfaction, anyway.  I'm just asking for stories at this point because, hey, who doesn't like stories? 

41
Apocalypse World / Re: NPC "brainers"
« on: July 26, 2010, 02:07:21 PM »
So, don't take it.  Starting with Breathtaking and Artful/Gracious makes perfect sense.  After that, well, it gets a little weird, literally.  You either have to pick up Lost and Hypnotic or ignore the "new skinner move" options.  (Though hypnotic music makes sense to me).  If you don't like that psychic angel, your best best bet is to take all the +1stats and change type to Operator as soon as you hit ungiven future. 


42
Apocalypse World / Re: Stat Substitution Glitch
« on: July 26, 2010, 02:03:18 PM »
FigureFour, thanks for the help, and I'm glad your game wnet well!

Simon, if you don't mind indulging me

--did you always feel that you had a logical place to put your advancements when they came?

--how long did you play the character, and did you feel "done" with him when you stopped?

I think I'm unused to the idea of characters having a planned obsolescence of 3 or 4 sessions.  My prior experience tends toward the superheroic game style, like D&D, and as I haven't had a lot of chances to run long games, I tend to enjoy best the rare chance to get in a character's head for 8 or more sessions.   

43
So, if you aren't going to support Player on player combat especially thoroughly, it would seem that you want to avoid "fiddly" kung fu rules.  Looking at the Crane Style example, choosing between 1 damage and ap, for instance, is a lot more effort than I think a fight with NPCs usually merits.  Unless you're introducing more powerful armor, the AP option is only relevant when they have armor-2, and honestly with +1harm you can probably take a guy out in one shot anyway. 

I'd start by thinking of scenes where Wuxia heroes fight and ask myself "what was accomplished here?"  Then I'd ask myself which are the fiction and which need to be moves

--an army/gang is defeated by a martial artist
--an artist wins a fight without taking harm
--a patron or crowd in impressed by the artist's virtuosity
--a master agrees to train a student, or acknowledges that the student's training is done
--something exotic happens to the artist's victims. 

Off the top of my head, I think "a master agrees to take you" could be part of the fiction, or treated as a special manipulate roll.  Add a new tag, "Connoisseur:Stat".  A character with Connoisseur: Strategy can be manipulated with+strategy, one with Connoisseur:Wisdom with +wisdom and so on. 

Taking out armies calls for something like NTBFW, Avoiding harm needs its own move, and impressing the audience could be based on Skinner moves and/or on Moonlighting (try to find a patron to support you with "gigs" like acrobatics or calligraphy)

Finally, I would avoid going crazy with special attacks.  It seems to me that, broadly speaking, there are two types of special kung fu attacks.  One leaves people alive but incapacitated in some way (like the paralyzing nerve strikes, or breaking the opponent's chi), the other gives them some progressive problem that can be used to manipulate them (they are poisoned, or you now control their life force or whatever.

I'd simply make a basic rule that PCs can always inflict nonlethal harm, allow them to specify types of harm with seize/go aggro ("I want him be unable to fight/I want to break his leg), and introduce a new move that allows the PC to "suspend" harm they would otherwise inflict. 

These are just my thoughts looking over what's here so far...

44
Some Moves for flavor:

A Flippin' Ninja: At the beginning of the session, roll+Wood; on a 10+ hold 3, on 7-9 hold 1; on a miss, someone knows you're a ninja

Spend 1 hold to
--be a member of any group including unnamed persons
--have a weapon no matter how ridiculous the situation
--help or interfere with any move by cunning retroactive preparation

When you bind an elemental, roll+earth

10+ the elemental is a nihilistic, hold 3
7-9 the elemental is a platonist, hold 1
Miss: the elemental is a hedonist, hold 0

Spend 1 hold to
--have the Elemental do a rote task for a day
--have the elemental make one move on your behalf; it's stats are yours, but remember to do it, you have to do it.
--keep it from succumbing to its impulse

When you run out of hold, the elemental becomes a Threat, unless it was a nihilist (in which case it returns to Shadow). 

Man's Best Friend

The following apply when your beats could reasonably help you:

When you issue a challenge, add your beasts' power
When you assert your authority, add its majesty
When you travel the shadowlands, add its utility

Beast Profiles

People's Hawk
Power 1, Majesty 0, Utility 2

Revolutionary Tiger
Power 2, Majesty 1, Utility 0


45
Apocalypse World / Re: Stat Substitution Glitch
« on: July 26, 2010, 02:21:14 AM »
FigureFour,

What I'm curious about is what you did with that pile of advances.  Your Gunlugger, for instance, "pretty much ran out of advancement options".  Does that include the crew, the gang, and the hardhold?  If so, how did the other players react to the introduction of all these extra characters?  Or did the MC use NPCs you guys already knew and loved (or loved to hate) for the gang members and hold citizens? 




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