1
Apocalypse World / Re: 2nd Edition and Seize by Force (and similar moves)
« on: February 24, 2017, 12:54:53 AM »You're not willing to explain your reasoning behind this, though?
I think he's trying to explain it, but he speaks so consistently within the jargon of the game book that when there are differences of understanding it becomes difficult to pick out exactly what he means, sometimes.
As for the example of "getting shot", I suppose I should have expected such an obvious response. But it doesn't address my question at all - I was using "getting shot" as an example of a "hard move", separate from the action being described. I was hoping people would understand the thinking behind my question instead of playing "gotcha" with my particular example.
I'm not sure whether that's aimed at me or at Vincent. If me, I should point out that I did not mean it as a "gotcha", but as a genuine explanation of how it's meant to be played. In just a moment, I'm going to explain what might happen if you don't get shot, using your own example, as I understand (and use) the rules.
For instance, let's say I'm trying to escape from my captors. I use a sharp stone to slit my bonds, and I run out into the courtyard. I bump into a guard; he's got a pistol in a holster, and he's standing in front of the door (the exit). He hardly has time to react, except to bring his arms up to hold me back. I charge at him, head down and fists swinging. We decide this is me Seizing by Force - I want to get to the door, to "fight my way free".
When is it legit for you, as MC, to say that I'm not quick enough, and that the guard manages to draw his weapon and shoot me?
Let's make three sub-examples out of your example here. In both of them, you're unarmored (because of course they removed your armor when they captured you) and you're a gunlugger with the Not To Be Fucked With move, and you're using the "fight your way free" variant of the Seize By Force move.
- You roll 7-9: You suffer little harm. You take definite and undeniable control of it (or, in this case, you definitely and undeniably fight your way free). You charge the guard and get to him before he has time to draw his gun, a .38 revolver (harm 2), so you manage to shove him aside so he lands on his back, incidentally taking an elbow to the ribs on your way out, suffering one harm that gets absorbed by the fact you count as a small gang versus a single individual (+1 armor). Rather than stick around and pick up his gun or beat him to death, you rush out the door and escape around the corner of the building before he can gather himself enough to exit the building and shoot you in the back, and before reinforcements arrive.
- You roll a miss: You suffer little harm, and that's the only outcome option you can have. You charge the guard and get to him before he has time to draw his gun, a .38 revolver (harm 2), so you manage to shove him aside so staggers away from the door, incidentally taking an elbow to the ribs on your way out, suffering one harm that gets absorbed by the fact you count as a small gang versus a single individual (+1 armor). Because you do not take definite and undeniable control of it (or, in this case, definitely and undeniably fight your way free), he doesn't take as long to get himself together and gets to take a shot at you before you get around the building. You now need to Act Under Fire to get away. Maybe a 7-9 "flinch, hesitate, or stall" means you take a shot in the back, but still get away for the moment; maybe a miss means more of the gang shows up. Alternatively, maybe a 7-9 means you get around the corner, but he saw which way you went; then, maybe a miss (prepare for the worst) means he shoots you in the back. The MC should play these consequences as things fit the "fiction".
- You roll a miss: You take definite and undeniable control of it (or, in this case, you definitely and undeniably fight your way free). The guard gets his .38 clear of the holster just as you slam into him, and reflexively pulls the trigger, shooting you in the leg, then he falls on his back and his gun flies across the room. Two harm, minus one for Not To Be Fucked With, applies. You still manage to rush through the door and around the corner before he can see where you go or reinforcements arrive.
On a hit, you might get shot anyway, but the default assumption seems to be that you'd have a chance to react, first. (For instance, maybe you get past the guard and are rushing out of the place when he draws and fires - and here you'd get a chance to try to avoid that, if circumstances allowed that.)
The way it works now, I'd say, is that your roll determines how many advantages you get to choose, and whether you get to the guard before he can get his hand on his gun is one of those potential advantages. Another is how far you manage to get when you fight your way free before the MC throws another move at you. Another is whether you kill the guy when his head hits the concrete floor so he can't call for help. Another is whether you impress, dismay, or frighten him so he just doesn't come after you at all once you're past him. The consequences are the player's to choose; the MC just describes them, really.
NOTE: Cross-posted with Ebok, above. I think we're in agreement. It seems like the intent here is to make "Seizing by Force" not an uncertain, risky action, but something you weigh against the cost (in harm/damage/casualties) instead. Is that the design goal here?
Keep in mind that every time harm is done you have to roll your harm move. What happens to your escape if you lose your footing when you get elbowed in the ribs, even if the harm total is zero? What if you miss something important, and the MC thinks up some consequence that will surprise you as a result (like another guard outside, an alarm of some kind that you trip on the way out, a lookout or sniper on a neighboring building, or someone following you discreetly to find out where your friends are hiding with the loot you stole from the gang who captured you for the sake of interrogating you for that information)? Every time there's an exchange of harm, right there in the description of the move you choose to use, consider that something might go awry when you roll your harm move as well.
I forgot to mention something kinda important in my last long post, and I had something in mind to mention in this long post that I've forgotten as well. I don't recall either at the moment, so maybe I'll remember to share both at some later time.