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Messages - chelonia

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Apocalypse World / Re: The Maestro D' and Barter
« on: September 16, 2014, 03:57:52 AM »
Munin, on page one of this discussion, Vincent explicitly says that things obtained via Fingers don't cost Barter unless you get a 7-9 and a barter cost is the "strings attached".

I don't find much to argue with in the rest of what you're all saying. Why do you think the Maestro should be unique in this respect, though? If the game is best when the Maestro doesn't get barter from running her establishment, why wouldn't the game be improved if the Angel and Savvyhead didn't get barter for being on-call or the Brainer didn't get barter for being a "kept Brainer" or the Gunlugger didn't get barter for hiring out as a thug-on-hand? Does this all hinge on the absence of a line on the Maestro playbook saying what the going rate for your services is? Or if that line were present, would you be in favor of removing it?

(Also, Fingers is an optional move, meaning that only some Maestro characters have non-barter ways of getting stuff they want. If it were mandatory it would be clear why the Maestro was different, but the Finger-less Maestro is simply worse than all other characters at getting material things she wants and that doesn't seem sensible to me.)

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Apocalypse World / Re: The Maestro D' and Barter
« on: September 15, 2014, 09:57:00 PM »
We might be talking at cross purposes, since I'm not suggesting the establishment should generate income passively. I'm responding to the idea that the Maestro is somehow outside the Barter system and never gets any Barter from Maestro-ing. Hence the problem with Make Them Buy- if the Maestro doesn't ever have any Barter she can't ever be made to buy, even though lots of resources fictionally flow through her hands. (Yes, it's possible to not be a distributor of resources if your staff are all volunteers who provide their own equipment and do their own maintenance, but that's not exactly the general case, you know?)

The full extent of my view is: the establishment and the Maestro are self-sufficient in the general run of things. If for some reason the Maestro wants extra mechanical Barter in order to interface with the various game mechanics that reference Barter, she should tell the group about the awesome events she is running to generate it, thus enriching the story. If she wants wealth to be a big ongoing aspect of her character, she should take Fingers.

Daniel, you're arguing for not playing with Barter at all, or minimizing your use of it. Which I think is a perfectly sensible way to play and also how my instincts go. But it's going to come out weird if everybody but the Maestro is using the Barter system fully.

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Apocalypse World / Re: The Maestro D' and Barter
« on: September 15, 2014, 07:53:30 PM »
Sure, but the "establishment" in question is among other things a means of distributing resources to its staff and patrons, and Barter is how personal control of the distribution of resources is abstracted in AW. Barter per se isn't that interesting a mechanic, but scarcity is certainly an interesting theme, and that means you can't be too vague about what resources a character has to throw around.

(Fingers in Every Pie bypasses the barter system, but it's an optional move, and scarcity is still a theme whether or not you pick it. Does the Maestro just roll over and die if the MC picks "Make Them Buy" as a hard move? Should the MC just never pick that move? If the Maestro is paying in free meals at the club or whatever, how many can she afford to give away, and how is that different from bartering? If Dustwitch the medic always charges everybody else for fixing them up, should we just assume she fixes Maestro out of the goodness of her heart? Much easier to just use the same Barter system the other playbooks use for the same reasons the other playbooks use it.)

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AW:Dark Age / Re: What Is a Right?
« on: September 15, 2014, 03:35:15 PM »
Hm. Maybe the people of Urbandale don't respect the Wicker-Wise's right to sacrifice, and I agree with you that that's good drama. but somebody must, right? She's presumably from a People who do sacrifice, which is where she learned it was a good thing. So when I say "most people" I mean "most of your People." Maybe your people have even forgotten but the old gods still want their sacrifice and will start wrecking things if they don't get it? That's still somebody who believes in your Right. Or maybe the people believe deep down that you have a Right, but the New Nobility have convinced them to ignore it.

I guess you can take a Right that nobody in the world respects, but I'm not sure why you want to. You're free to rage and stamp and call down the wrath of your gods on your faithless anyway. If you invented the right to kill people out of  whole cloth and neither people nor gods respect it, you're basically just a serial killer, right? I'm not sure I think serial killer Wicker-Wise actually does have a Right.

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AW:Dark Age / Re: What Is a Right?
« on: September 15, 2014, 05:45:55 AM »
They are insisting that because the playtest rules literally say so:

Quote
When someone or something denies you your right, choose 1 of the
following....
Declare that the MC or the other player should reconsider, or else you will hold it against them.

The "them" very clearly refers to the real people in this situation, not the fictional characters, since no fictional characters are even mentioned in the sentence. The Denied Your Right move gives several options for in-fiction response, and also gives an option for out-of-fiction response, in which you directly tell the other people sitting at the table that you will be mad at them if they keep doing the thing they just did. (Of course, telling the other players that something is upsetting you is also an option we always have in all games, but having it in the rules with a particular trigger gives it extra legitimacy.)

Re: other note, someone denies your Right to the Blessings of the Sun and Moon if they lock you in a cell with no windows, since you can't call upon them from there. I think only the MC could deny your Right to seek friends when you travel into a region, for instance by declaring that a region has no people in it or that you couldn't possibly know them. I don't think the +stat Rights can be denied.

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AW:Dark Age / Re: What Is a Right?
« on: September 15, 2014, 02:47:14 AM »
I have a hard time seeing "You have a Right to X" as different from "Most people agree that you have a Right to X". After all, it's not like the right is an objectively extant thing you can put on your shelf and point to; it functions only if people respect it.

So if you have a Right to the hospitality of hearth and hall, you can go up to a hall and ask for lodgings, and people will generally recognize that they ought to take you in. They still might not, but you, they, and anyone watching know they're not doing what they ought.
If  you have no such Right, you can still ask. And it's not like you're guaranteed to fail. The people you're imposing on know that they're under no obligation to help you, but maybe they like your face, or you Win Them Over, or they recognize from your colors that you and they serve the same king.

What the Right provides is a social context in which the default is to give you the thing you have a right to, without further justification. It neither enables your actions nor forbids other people's, it just fills in a piece of the local social contract.

The fact that you can hold Rights violations against other PCs or the MC is a totally different thing though. That's extremely direct meta communication and in any group I play with I would expect the right-violating player to back down immediately.

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Apocalypse World / Re: The Maestro D' and Barter
« on: September 14, 2014, 03:08:11 AM »
Dunno, this all doesn't really sound like being a fan of the Maestro. If I picked the playbook that focuses on running a business, I'd probably feel cheated if the MC insisted that the business itself couldn't ever make any money. I mean, by a strict reading, the Maestro can't even afford to eat at her own restaurant, which doesn't really square with Vincent's post in the other thread about being "self-sufficient".

The barter section tells us that your crew's cut of a spectacular event is 1-barter. It's weird that it doesn't give any suggestion what the Maestro's cut is, but that's probably the way to solve the problem: you and your establishment are self-sufficient, and if you want extra barter for whatever, tell us about the spectacular event you're throwing to bring it in.

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