Barf Forth Apocalyptica

barf forth apocalyptica => brainstorming & development => Topic started by: JBH on September 16, 2016, 09:58:27 AM

Title: Frontier World - a (Spaghetti) Western AW2 hack
Post by: JBH on September 16, 2016, 09:58:27 AM
I've put together this hack, based on AW2 preview material, for running a spaghetti western game with my group. It is a quick&dirty thing, meant for private use only, but it should be usable (as it is mostly a straight AW2 ripoff, which seems naturally well suited to western from the get going).
The main changes are renaming of archetypes, some tweaks to them, the Weird stat replaced by Wild and a couple of custom moves for wilderness exploration and showdowns. 

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0BzE-wIzHvKIcY0ppaW1zM0dId2M

I don't know if this is the right section in the forum for this, by the way. If not, feel free to move it elsewhere, please.
Title: Re: Frontier World - a (Spaghetti) Western AW2 hack
Post by: JBH on September 21, 2016, 06:52:31 AM
v2 is up with a couple of fixes for a Doc move (Healing Touch) and a Gunslinger move (Battle Instinct), which both had too much AW left into them.
Title: Re: Frontier World - a (Spaghetti) Western AW2 hack
Post by: JBH on September 29, 2016, 12:27:27 PM
v3 is up with tweaked Go Trailblazing move and reworked Showdown move.
Title: Re: Frontier World - a (Spaghetti) Western AW2 hack
Post by: Gavinwulf on October 23, 2016, 05:17:01 AM
Nice Western reskin!

I especially like how you re-worked Weird into Wild and made the Trailblazing move.
Using the Savvyhead to make the Native is an interesting and cool choice with the use of 'the Land'.
The way you organized the combat moves seems much cleaner and simplified than AW2ed.

The Showdown moves are interesting. I like the Staredown phase before exchanging fire. However I'm not sure if the results of the moves are quite right. I don't like how Hard determines who fires first in the second phase. I think Cool should determine who gets to shoot first. Cool seems more having to do with reflexes and looking cool. Hard has more to do with intimidation and the will to deal hurt. On the other hand, I can see the reasoning behind using Cool for the Staredown because well, the Staredowns in Westerns are just cool!

So I might think about the Staredown phase actually using Hard and the options being: Force your opponent to go for their gun first and/or, deal +1harm in the exchange of fire during the second phase (if there's an exchange of fire).
Then in the Shootout phase, roll +Cool. On a hit, you draw first. On a 10+ your draw is quicker and everyone knows it, whether you shoot your opponent or not is up to you. On a 7-9 you shoot.
–I feel this covers the showdowns where the hero is so fast and cool that the opponent knows he's at the hero's mercy and there's not even necessarily an exchange of fire. He went for his gun then suddenly loses heart when he sees he's in the hero's sights and he barely cleared his holster.
Title: Re: Frontier World - a (Spaghetti) Western AW2 hack
Post by: JBH on October 23, 2016, 10:52:39 AM
Glad you are liking it. I tried to go as light as possible with the reskin here, as I though there was already a western within AW: it just needed a little spin to come through. We have finished our run with it and it went quite well, definitely above expectations.
I see your point about the Showdown move. I think we agree this needs to involve both Cool and Hard. Either ways work. This was a tough move to pull together in a way that would work both for dueling with NPC and in PVP - hope I managed to. So far we only had one in real play and the player rolled two 12s in a row, so well, not much for anecdotal evidence (but it was fun :-)).
Title: Re: Frontier World - a (Spaghetti) Western AW2 hack
Post by: Paul T. on October 23, 2016, 10:53:43 AM
This is actually a really interesting reskin!

I like a lot about it, and the rules match the source material quite well. (Although I'm not 100% convinced about all the playbooks, like the Gunslinger - I would probably omit a few if I were to play this.)

A few comments:

* The AW rules are built so that your Weird is always increasing, far more so than the other stats. You've changed Weird to Wild - a nice change! - but is it appropriate to a Western that the endgame has everyone becoming more and more Wild?

* It might be nice to have some kind of Animal Handling move based on Wild, as well. (For horse taming, standing down a bear, etc.) "Tame the Beast", perhaps? I don't know if it should be a Basic Move, but it would give another interesting use for Wild (I could even see using it to deal with someone hopelessly drunk, for example!).

* I agree that the Showdown move is very interesting - and I like how you've broken it down into two segments of action - but I'm not sure what the options are for. Is drawing first all about looking calmer than the other guy? What about shooting first? Is it just narrative colour, or does it change the outcome of the showdown? (For example, if I "shoot first" and I "disarm" my opponent, do I still exchange harm?)

Title: Re: Frontier World - a (Spaghetti) Western AW2 hack
Post by: Paul T. on October 23, 2016, 10:56:18 AM
Also, I'm not sure what augury does, if there's no psychic maelstrom!
Title: Re: Frontier World - a (Spaghetti) Western AW2 hack
Post by: JBH on October 23, 2016, 12:52:26 PM
A few comments:

* The AW rules are built so that your Weird is always increasing, far more so than the other stats. You've changed Weird to Wild - a nice change! - but is it appropriate to a Western that the endgame has everyone becoming more and more Wild?

* It might be nice to have some kind of Animal Handling move based on Wild, as well. (For horse taming, standing down a bear, etc.) "Tame the Beast", perhaps? I don't know if it should be a Basic Move, but it would give another interesting use for Wild (I could even see using it to deal with someone hopelessly drunk, for example!).

* I agree that the Showdown move is very interesting - and I like how you've broken it down into two segments of action - but I'm not sure what the options are for. Is drawing first all about looking calmer than the other guy? What about shooting first? Is it just narrative colour, or does it change the outcome of the showdown? (For example, if I "shoot first" and I "disarm" my opponent, do I still exchange harm?)

* Also, I'm not sure what augury does, if there's no psychic maelstrom!

Good points. Thanks.

Regarding characters becoming more 'Wild' as they go on, it kind of makes sense to me (it is the Wild West after all :)). However I'm wondering if there need to be a custom move based on 'Wild' that allows to accomplish astonishing feats, at a cost.

Animal handling: yes, I thought about it, but then didn't want to add too much over the AW framework (also considering it already provide moves for mounted combat). However if you have idea for animal handling moves that can be cool.

Showdowns: pulling first is a bad as that technically makes your a murderer (while the other would be just firing in self defense). Shooting first is important as it may prevent the other from firing altogether (if killed or disarmed).

Augury: you are right, it is just a leftover from AW that I need to amend. However it may make sense for someone like the Native to be able to perform Augury in some cases (like in a spirit quest).
Title: Re: Frontier World - a (Spaghetti) Western AW2 hack
Post by: Gavinwulf on October 23, 2016, 02:14:30 PM
Yeah, I read Augury as a spooky shaman move within this context.

Also w the Showdown stuff, I would make a clear distinction between "Going for your gun" first and "Drawing your gun" first. Which is what I think you're going for based on the source material. "Pulling" & "Shooting" aren't as clear to me in the context of a showdown.
Title: Re: Frontier World - a (Spaghetti) Western AW2 hack
Post by: Paul T. on October 23, 2016, 02:39:53 PM
Good answers.

Rewording "augury" as a Spirit Quest sounds fantastic (I don't think a pure reskinning will work quite right, however).

The visual design/layout of your booklet is really appealing, by the way. How did you do it?
Title: Re: Frontier World - a (Spaghetti) Western AW2 hack
Post by: JBH on October 24, 2016, 07:45:17 PM
Very good feedback. Thanks, guys.
Regarding Augury, I agree it would need to be replaced by another custom move, but for the time being I'm just going to remove it. I'm however considering bringing Insight back in (as it would fit fine here) and rename the last Native move to Vision Quest, using it.

Vision Quest: some component of your sacred ground, or some arrangement of its components, is uniquely receptive to the land (add insight). Choose and name it, or else leave it for the MC to reveal during play.

I've been rethinking about the Showdown move upon the comments and I'm considering moving the draw&shoot to the Staredown phase, so it doesn't mean it automatically hits. Here is how it may work:

SHOWDOWN
When you face off with someone in a gunfight duel, roll+cool to engage in a stare down contest. In PvP both roll+cool, choosing secretly from one another (contradicting choices cancel out). On a 10+, choose 2. On a 7-9, choose 1. On a miss, the other chooses 1 against you.
• You force the other to go for their gun first (so you can claim self-defense).
• You draw and shoot first in the shootout (before exchanging harm).
• You take +1 forward.

When the stare down is resolved, proceed to the shootout: exchange harm, but first roll+hard. In PvP both roll+hard, choosing secretly from one another (contradicting choices cancel out). On a 10+, choose 2. On a 7-9, choose 1. On a miss, the other chooses 1 against you.
• You inflict terrible harm (+1harm).
• You suffer little harm (-1harm).
• You disarm the other, but inflict little harm (-1harm).

Regarding the formatting of the playbooks, it is just a Word doc exported to pdf (sorry to disappoint :-)). I use the Playbill font for titles and Modern No. 20 for body of text.
Title: Re: Frontier World - a (Spaghetti) Western AW2 hack
Post by: Paul T. on October 24, 2016, 08:22:00 PM
That's certainly a lot clearer! Good work.
Title: Re: Frontier World - a (Spaghetti) Western AW2 hack
Post by: JBH on October 25, 2016, 06:03:33 AM
Happy it seems to make sense. I've promoted the changes into v4, which is now up. Thanks !
Title: Re: Frontier World - a (Spaghetti) Western AW2 hack
Post by: Rubberduck on October 25, 2016, 06:53:13 AM
I wonder about the Showdown Staredown

If I roll 10+ and you roll a miss, does that mean that I pick 3? Or that I pick 2 for myself and 1 for you?

If it is the second, I'd suggest to reformulate the first choice as:

• You delay your draw so the other go for their gun first (allowing you to claim self-defense).

Just because I find it weird that I might decide that you "force" me to go first.
Title: Re: Frontier World - a (Spaghetti) Western AW2 hack
Post by: JBH on October 25, 2016, 07:20:36 AM
I wonder about the Showdown Staredown

If I roll 10+ and you roll a miss, does that mean that I pick 3? Or that I pick 2 for myself and 1 for you?

If it is the second, I'd suggest to reformulate the first choice as:

• You delay your draw so the other go for their gun first (allowing you to claim self-defense).

Just because I find it weird that I might decide that you "force" me to go first.

The way I see it, you pick 3: two for the 10+ and one for the other missing.
Title: Re: Frontier World - a (Spaghetti) Western AW2 hack
Post by: Paul T. on October 27, 2016, 06:32:22 PM
(You should also go read "Western World" - one of the forums at the very bottom of the list. There's some neat discussion there.)

(Although you probably already have! In that case, ignore...)
Title: Re: Frontier World - a (Spaghetti) Western AW2 hack
Post by: CrimsonSquirrel on November 17, 2016, 03:45:17 PM
JBH - some really good stuff here so far.  I've tried all the 'western' hacks I could find and there are some good ones, but this one (so far anyway) seems to incorporate everything I need nicely, and with 2nd ed rules to boot.  cheers!

By way of helping, I took a look through and here are my random editing and other thoughts - take em or leave em as you see fit.  I hope it helps!


--As a general note, I'm finding a few cases where something is difficult to read in the regular text font being used.  I'm usually the guy that has to read the small text or whatever for the two older gamers at my table, so I'm guessing others may have some trouble also.  Forward slashes are very light (possibly almost invisible to some), colons are kerned really close to the text (could probably be fixed with a space character between them), etc.  This is on screen, they may print better but I haven't tested that as of yet.

General
various 'you get +1 [stat] (to [stat]+3)' - this is sometimes listed as you get +1 [stat] ([stat]+3) instead.  I like the first one better as it is more clear, but either way it should be consistent.


The Doc - Healing Touch.
Unclear - "On a miss: first, you don’t heal them. Second, if your patient’s a fellow player’s character, treat it as though you’ve made that move and missed the roll."  - which move? healing touch?

The Outlaw - Your Posse
-still references 'bikes'

The Gunslinger
-references 'concrete and dirt' in the blurb. Anachronistic - concrete not common during old west times.  'Pine and Dirt' maybe?  or 'Scrub and Dirt'?
-Insano like Drano (anachronistic).  Maybe just a 'western' sounding word like 'moonstruck' or 'unhinged'?

The Preacher
-references 'concrete and dirt' in the blurb. Anachronistic - concrete not common during old west times.  'Pine and Dirt' maybe?  or 'Scrub and Dirt'?
-non-ascii character or something?  'Your followers are drug-􀃫xated. Surplus: +stupor'
-missing or extra word:  'If you’d like to start play with a mount or, get with the MC.'

The Gentleman
'Everybody eats' move:  'How are they doing? what’s up with them?' - 2 things on one line? or 2nd thing on first line capitalized?
Playbook title - seems gender-specific; some may have issue with this.  Could change to 'Proprietor', which seems more in line with someone that definitely owns a business (Gentleman doesn't lead to that conclusion, per se).
HX: 'Which of you do I find most attractive?  For those characters, write Hx+2.' - ambigious as to whether choosing one or multiple people.

The Belle
Playbook title - seems gender-specific; some may have issue with this.  I can't really think of a good alternative here though... 'Head Turner'?
Belle Special - 'You can seduce them as though you’d rolled a 10+, even if you haven’t got that move.'  - 'Seduce' is a basic move, so everyone should have that - was the Belle's 'Seductive' move what was meant here?
Wild beauty: 'when ask someone to escort you in the wilderness' (typo, should probably be 'when *you* ask...'
HX - there seems to be extra 'For that character, write Hx[whatever]' lines in this section...

The Native
the land speaks - 'How long ago was this thing stepped or handled?' -grammar, should be 'stepped on' probably
sacred ground - 'a minerals ore' - grammar, shold probably be 'a mineral ore' or 'ore from minerals' or similar
Gigs:  'As guide for a powerful NPC; or other means as you can' - I'm not parsing this properly in my brain at all, the 2nd part after guiding a powerful NPC.

I'm confused on an aspect of The Native.  In one move it states:
'Vision Quest: some component of your sacred ground, or some arrangement of its components, is uniquely receptive to the land (add insight)...'
And later in the Sacred Ground section it states:
'In your sacred ground you can find refuge, meditate for insight, commune with nature...'
--So it sorta sounds like you can already use insight in the sacred ground.  What benefit does Vision Quest offer in that instance?  Or is the Sacred Ground's listing of 'insight' descriptive and not game mechanics?

The Starbearer
The Law - 'No drinking alcohol outdoor' - should be 'outdoors'
Gear - 'If you’d like to start play with a mount, get with MC.' -should include 'the' (get with *the* MC) for readability and consistency
-what's this 'Source' in this playbook?  It is mentioned in improvement (add 2 features to the source) and under gear (in addition to  your source), but I'm not grokking what it is and there seems to be no other reference in the document..  looks like it may be re-skinned from the Quarantine's Stasis, but I'm still unsure how it works with the Starbearer here.