Barf Forth Apocalyptica

barf forth apocalyptica => Apocalypse World => Topic started by: Christopher Weeks on January 17, 2011, 01:39:21 PM

Title: change your character to a new type
Post by: Christopher Weeks on January 17, 2011, 01:39:21 PM
I'm finding that the rules for what to keep and what to lose are too vague for my comfort.  I'd like some explication of the rules, particularly "Leaves behind everything belonging to her old life" from Vincent.  And I'd appreciate any examples from actual games that y'all have of characters changing their type.

To root this in an actual game, I play Annette, The Driver of Bus -- which is also her ancestral home (or at least she and her twin sister were born there).  And I've acquired all the advances that I'm interested in.  So now, I can retire, bring in a new PC or change type.  My MC believes that there is no way that I can change type and also keep Bus.  And I think that there is no way the character that I've built up would ever give up Bus.  So I'm done.  (Though, I'm eye-balling custom moves as a way out, so no need to point me to them.) 

Is that how the game is supposed to work?  Is that how y'all play?  I can see justification for my MC's stance -- if my character is not willing to give up Bus, then she's really still The Driver.  So I'm not just asking to beat him up, I'm curious where others stand on the issue.

Thanks!
Title: Re: change your character to a new type
Post by: Chris on January 17, 2011, 02:09:26 PM
Yep. As an MC, I'd say no Driver, no Bus. Otherwise, your character isn't really stepping away from that life. It's not "I'm the same character, but now I have these moves as well." It should mark a pronounced change in the character.

That said, I, as MC, would work with you to find a reason why you don't have the bas anymore.

"Hey, Chris, I''d like to change playtypes, but I don't think I could have BillyJoe drop the bus and keep my character real. He just never would."

"Well, what are you thinking of switching to?"

"Faceless."

"Ah. Well, of course, you're in the bus one night, sleeping there like usual, when the raiders from over the hills set fire to that bitch. How full are you on gas right now? Pretty full, right?" etc.

Like any improvement, it doesn't have to spring into fiction as soon as your pencil is done marking the x next to "change character type".

Do it to do it.
Title: Re: change your character to a new type
Post by: Margolotte on January 17, 2011, 10:28:21 PM
What with Bus being the ancestral home, isn't it secretly a Hardhold, anyway?
Title: Re: change your character to a new type
Post by: Mike Sands on January 17, 2011, 10:40:56 PM
if my character is not willing to give up Bus, then she's really still The Driver.

I don't think it's really that simple an equation.

There are sure to be cases where The Driver is no longer who you are, but you still drive around your old car (or Bus). Like Margolotte said, maybe it really is a Hardhold and you are just recognising that now. Or you become a Gunlugger and well, you sure need someway to get all those guns from one place to another, right?

From what you say about the character and the story, it sure sounds to me like owning Bus is central to who the character is (as long as you aren't specifically rejecting it).

Aside from all that, a bus is gear anyway, not a move (which is what the rules are about). Bus is still there and Annette still has the keys, right? Until some one takes it off her or sets it on fire or drives it into a hole, you still have it.
Title: Re: change your character to a new type
Post by: Simon C on January 17, 2011, 10:53:30 PM
Right on, Mike.

I think your MC is being tight. I mean, what's the alternative? You retire the character when you don't want to, or you play a new PC you're not excited about. Both options suck. And like Mike said, Bus isn't going to magically disappear.

I mean sure, giving up Bus is a sure sign that your character has changed types, but changing types doesn't have to mean giving up Bus.
Title: Re: change your character to a new type
Post by: Paul T. on January 18, 2011, 11:58:52 AM
Funny:

My intuition here says that the "retired" Driver keeps the Bus, of course (unless s/he gives it away, sells it, or whatever), but loses the Driver abilities (such as gaining bonuses while in the Bus, "no shit driver"). The character's idea of self has changed, s/he no longer has the confidence behind the wheel that s/he used to.

But it really depends on the character, doesn't it? Maybe driving is still part of the character's raison d'etre. I think that's what Vincent's getting at with those rules.

It would also be cool if the Bus just became "grounded", as a living space.
Title: Re: change your character to a new type
Post by: lumpley on January 18, 2011, 12:10:58 PM
Christopher, what are you considering switching to?
Title: Re: change your character to a new type
Post by: Christopher Weeks on January 18, 2011, 01:02:59 PM
When this first came up, maybe four weeks (two play-sessions) ago, it was to The Hocus.  Since that time, another player has brought in as second character who is The Hocus.  Currently, Battlebabe is making a lot of sense given how the character is developing.  And it's not a thing that I feel like really needs to happen.  But it's a thing that's listed as an option and I feel like it can't happen.

As an example, giving up the main Driver move would make more sense to me than giving up Bus.  And I'm sure these are all case-by-case rulings where the MC and the player need to just find their way, but by posting here I'm hoping to get some more context for that.

And the other thing is that we're tentatively planning to wrap this game and start another AW in which I'll be MCing my first after two more sessions.  So that means two other things: I don't need to rock the boat in a game that's going to end, and also -- I want to have my head around this issue for when it's my responsibility to decide stuff.
Title: Re: change your character to a new type
Post by: fnord3125 on January 18, 2011, 05:34:44 PM
What, are there no other vehicles being driven in this instance of AW?  I think you can drive a bus and not be The Driver.

Just look at our "water world" PbP game: pretty much everyone has some kind of boat in order to get around, but there's only one Capital-D Driver.

I think your MC hasn't thought it through thoroughly enough, or is being overly strict.
Title: Re: change your character to a new type
Post by: Chris on January 19, 2011, 12:38:27 AM
What, are there no other vehicles being driven in this instance of AW?  I think you can drive a bus and not be The Driver.

No, see, clearly I'm in the minority, but yeah, everyone else has vehicles, but if my DRIVER is switching playbooks, he's losing his ride. It's not about taking things away, but if you're just switching books to do so and there's no fictional difference, just more moves, then meh.

Switching books is an awesome time to really take a character we've been looking at for a dozen sessions and examine him from a new angle. And that angle should be more than 'now I've got a grenade launcher'. Blah.

If you can't see your character giving up the ride, if it's that important to the character still, then that sounds like a Driver to me.
Title: Re: change your character to a new type
Post by: Mike Sands on January 19, 2011, 12:52:50 AM
If you can't see your character giving up the ride, if it's that important to the character still, then that sounds like a Driver to me.

If the rule for changing playbooks was "you no longer have any of your old stuff or moves, just the new ones" then sure.

However, the rule is that you keep anything that is central to who they are and not just the thing they were doing then.

So you could stop being The Driver but still drive the car that is super-important to you. Maybe you don't have the "No Shit Driver" move any more, because that was just a passing thing. But maybe you still do.

To me, the key thing is to talk it through with the MC. Is this thing part of the character or the old playbook? Okay, now what about this thing? And keep that up until you are done.

Generalisations won't work here. Maybe my Driver would leave his car behind when he becomes a Faceless, but maybe your Driver absolutely has to keep hers when she becomes a Hardholder. You can't know which is right unless you think about what makes sense for your character, in your game.
Title: Re: change your character to a new type
Post by: Chris on January 19, 2011, 01:40:00 PM
Sure. What I'm saying is that there needs to be a marked difference to the character, not 'now I'm a driver with psychic powers'. Taking away no-shit driver, but leaving how important the car is just means that the driver suddenly has depreciated skills as a driver, but the personality is the same. I'm not interested in it as an upward move, but a lateral one. That's all.
Title: Re: change your character to a new type
Post by: Paul T. on January 19, 2011, 03:12:02 PM
Maybe, in a situation where the players can't agree, a custom move would be in order? It might be much easier to agree on that:

When you change to a new playbook...
Title: Re: change your character to a new type
Post by: lumpley on January 19, 2011, 03:57:03 PM
If you ask me, when the players really can't agree, it's time to call it.
Title: Re: change your character to a new type
Post by: Ry on January 19, 2011, 04:42:17 PM
But that doesn't answer what changing books means for the Driver. 

Like, if I get an Operator gig selling hot dogs off of a stand connected to my bus, can I keep the bus because the bus is part of my gig? 
Title: Re: change your character to a new type
Post by: fnord3125 on January 19, 2011, 05:27:09 PM
The Driver giving up his ride is obviously a case in which he must be switching playbooks.  But it doesn't follow from that that the Driver switching playbooks means he must be giving up his ride.
Title: Re: change your character to a new type
Post by: Matteo Turini on January 19, 2011, 05:41:45 PM
Just giving up the A no shit driver seems reasonable.
I mean... He doesn't forget how to drive, but the fact that he's a super-driver isn't important anymore.
I could see this work in game. "I'm not that guy anymore, pal. I have a goddamn city to look after, now."
Title: Re: change your character to a new type
Post by: lumpley on January 19, 2011, 06:31:14 PM
Sometimes you get to keep your bus, sometimes you don't. It depends on everything. The rule is that you leave behind what's your old life, you bring with you what's you, and you and your MC together work out which is which. It's straightforward and clear.

Christopher, nobody here can help you, it's between you and your MC. None of our opinions here in this thread matter at all.

If you and your MC really can't agree, somebody's not playing the game. More rules, of all things, won't solve that.
Title: Re: change your character to a new type
Post by: Christopher Weeks on January 19, 2011, 06:50:42 PM
Sure, and rules aren't exactly what I'm looking for.  More like variety of perspective.  Anyway, this discussion is being good for me, so thanks everyone.
Title: Re: change your character to a new type
Post by: lumpley on January 19, 2011, 07:27:27 PM
Cool! Then I can help too.

When Rose, our maestro d', became a hardholder, she didn't keep her establishment, but she kept living in it. She just handed its daily operations over to the most promising of her staff. She didn't have to give it up at all; it became an independent success that she could enjoy. 
Title: Re: change your character to a new type
Post by: kaiserjez on January 20, 2011, 03:16:54 AM
Although it's a bit meta-gamey I would be concerned about the ex-driver sucking as a character compared to the others if she lost a no-shit driver, due to the stat block being pretty crappy for a driver out of their vehicle. Plus it makes no sense to me that they suddenly become worse at driving!
Title: Re: change your character to a new type
Post by: Christopher Weeks on January 20, 2011, 09:53:36 AM
They lose their one-with-the-vehicle focus, maybe.
Title: Re: change your character to a new type
Post by: fnord3125 on January 25, 2011, 05:20:31 PM
I, for one, as an MC, would likely have no problem with an Ex-Driver keeping both her ride AND "a no shit driver."  Ya know, assuming it makes sense in fiction.

I don't think this would make the character "over-powered" at all.  In fact, she's likely to be as "shitty" stat-wise as an Ex-Driver who loses "a no shit driver."  After all, if she's no longer The Driver, how much time is she likely to be spending driving?
Title: Re: change your character to a new type
Post by: Chris on January 25, 2011, 06:13:50 PM
I don't think this would make the character "over-powered" at all.  In fact, she's likely to be as "shitty" stat-wise as an Ex-Driver who loses "a no shit driver."  After all, if she's no longer The Driver, how much time is she likely to be spending driving?

Yeah, I don't think anyone's saying the issue is them being overpowered. The issue, for me, is that the character isn't different. Why shouldn't she spend the same about of time driving as before? The game is still rewarding that.

If one of my players brought this concern to me, as written in the OP, I'd have them drop the move and the ride. If they didn't bring it to me, I'd let them keep it. But the OP sounds like the only reason a playbook change is happening is because the game is forcing him to change through the exhaustion of other improvement options and the desire to keep stuff from the original playbook feels to me like a desire to mitigate change in the character, which isn't something I'm interested in at my games.

I'd have them drop the car and the move. If they weren't interested in doing that, I'd recommend retiring the character and playing a new playbook. One of the things I like about AW is that the upward trend in effectiveness has a ceiling at which point the game naturally moves laterally. I'm not fighting the upward trend as much as I'm advocating the lateral one.

I tend to look at AW like a television show and I hate shows that drag on with the same character dynamics. Personal preference and all that.
Title: Re: change your character to a new type
Post by: octoscott on January 25, 2011, 11:30:57 PM
At the beginning of each session, for each move held over from an old playbook, roll+(that playbooks stat). On a 10+ no problem, you still got it. 7-9 getting rusty, use it this session or lose it. On a miss you're just not so great at that any more, it's gone.

Just for fun. Moves for moves.
Title: Re: change your character to a new type
Post by: Mike Sands on January 26, 2011, 03:52:21 PM
At the beginning of each session, for each move held over from an old playbook, roll+(that playbooks stat). On a 10+ no problem, you still got it. 7-9 getting rusty, use it this session or lose it. On a miss you're just not so great at that any more, it's gone.

Just for fun. Moves for moves.

That's pretty nifty! I wonder if it might work better redone to be an end-of-session move instead? With +1 if you used the move, or +3 if you used it more than once.
Title: Re: change your character to a new type
Post by: octoscott on January 26, 2011, 09:03:27 PM
Could be.

My version is more like "Oh shit, I better use that"
Your version is more like "Oh shit... I forgot to use that!"

Both cool, different flavor.
Title: Re: change your character to a new type
Post by: Mike Sands on January 26, 2011, 09:37:16 PM
Actually, I would leave the rest the same - I'd give the player the next session as grace before taking the move away.
Title: Re: change your character to a new type
Post by: octoscott on January 27, 2011, 01:38:35 AM
So more like this:

At the end of each session, for each move held over from an old playbook, roll+(that playbooks stat). Add +1 if you used the move this session, add +3 if more than once. On a 10+ no problem, you still got it. 7-9 getting rusty, use it next session or lose it. On a miss you're just not so great at that any more, it's gone.

You literally could not lose something you used a lot in this case, you'd have +5 or so.
Title: Re: change your character to a new type
Post by: Brendan C. on January 27, 2011, 01:49:56 PM
Here's how something like this cropped up in another game.

The skinner, with each passing day, is becoming more like a battlebabe, and so the change in playbooks is only a matter of time. When she started out, she was established as having a guitar, and she would put on performances, playing guitar and singing, for her Artful & Gracious move. When she flips to battlebabe (because again, it's a when, not an if), then, does she have to give up her guitar, like the driver has to give up his vehicle? Well, that seems odd, if the playbook change necessitates the loss of the instrument. But I could see her purposely choosing to give up her guitar, to signify her change in being. She's a battlebabe now, not a musician.

However, it has become more apparent now that her singing is a signficant part of her Artful & Gracious move, her chosen art. So...if she becomes a battlebabe, does she have to give up her singing voice? That's hyperbolic, of course, but it might be better understood as, "if the Artful & Gracious move was, for her, a core component of being a Skinner, does she have to essentially give up everything attached to that move? Does she have to give up the move itself? Maybe when she becomes a battlebabe, her chosen art changes to something like 'combat' or 'doing murders' or some other good old cliche?"

I think that what this illustrates to me is that the context thing of what makes sense to abandon actually goes one step further. The choice of what this character does abandon is so much more telling than saying "She has to abandon her guitar, she has to abandon her position as a singer in the club." Something needs to have changed, certainly, to get across that she's a battlebabe now, and not a skinner. But to me, the responsibility to portray that shift does not fall on some prescriptive "give up these pieces of equipment" thing; it's much stronger if it's embodied in a specific choice, made by the character (and the player).

So maybe that's one possible answer. Does Annette have to give up Bus? Well, no, not necessarily. But Annette does have to have changed in some fashion, so that she's not who she was before. The exact form of that change is up to you, so long as it's there.

It's more like asking a penetrating question, "How did you change?", as opposed to saying, "CHANGE, DAMMIT!"

Also, Scott, that's a really interesting as a custom move, but it worries me with regard to some of the moves that are harder to use. Would Moonlighting be a move, for instance? How about Insano Like Drano? How about Oftener Right, which relies on other people coming to you, as opposed to you doing anything? How about Touched by Death? I could see this move working well in some games, then, where everyone's okay with losing some of these long-term moves as part of the attrition of switching playbooks, but I could totally see other games where this move would not work at all. Still, really cool to ponder, neat stuff.
Title: Re: change your character to a new type
Post by: Christopher Weeks on February 03, 2011, 01:09:14 PM
So, Annette evolved from The Driver to The Battlebabe.  She gave up Bus by foisting it on her twin sister, Jiffy-Pop which required a Manipulate -- which I surprised everyone by hitting with a 13 and secured her as a friend instead of a threat.  It was a very satisfying moment of play.